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I'm Not a Griever

 
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MerchanT
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2003 10:48 pm    Post subject: I'm Not a Griever Reply with quote

-----
OK first this started out as a reply to Gorb's post about the "new mod" topic and then I realized it was a rant so I put it in here. Sorry if that resulted in some gaps in continuity.
-----

OK so the topic is important. I'm not a griever. I'll list every character I've ever had in case you want to think otherwise. I think they were all good characters and I tried to RP all of them.

Xavier Monteclair, Xander Soulcleaver, Xerxes Lathandrosian, Baleric Mos'viel, Finn Mos'viel, Mordecai Mos'viel, Yalo Blind-eye, Calabash Crebain, Olaf Olaffson, Quinn DeGracier, Ethanial Lathlorien (wow have I had a bunch of characters).

Anyway I can basically guarantee none of you had any negative experiences with these guys and I feel like I always role-played well. I support the mod and I support the community and I've always tried to offer constructive criticism.

I know that I am speaking for several people with this post... if any of you want to reply and back me up it would be appreciated. I introduced all of them to NWN and all of them to Dyso and we've been playing on here for the better part of a year now. If you're not one of those people and you agree with me anyway let me know too.... well or if you don't agree... I guess anyone can reply but the point is I'm not crazy and coming from out in left field or anything. This is something that my friends and I have been discussing for several weeks.

Now about all this stuff that's flying around right now.

Everyone forgets that this was at one point one of the hottest mods out there. We had 60-80 slots on two servers and it was always packed. There were powergamers, yes, but there were also the rest of us who just plain had fun. We RP'd and we PG'd but we had fun. I could name 20 players for you off the top of my head who were around for these "glory days" and many of them are still here. We're still the same people we've always been, and the same players we've always been. And I feel that almost without exception -- we're not a bunch of whiners or jerks or whatever some people are fond of labelling the whole community as.

So what changed? There have been several factors. The single biggest one being .3x. It goes without saying that there were major changes here. Some of these were going to be addressed by tradeskills and other upgrades that its now painfully obvious are probably never coming. We lost a lot of people with this upgrade (MOST of whom aren't worth missing, but a lot anyway) and our numbers have been significantly lower ever since. Since then most of us have adapted to the "new system" and are used to collecting gems to sell instead of armor. The original people on my list still do our RPing and still contribute to events (when there are some) and the forums here. Only now we've got endless talk of server wipes and new mods and how we can all go to heck if we don't like things. Some of the most loyal people around are terrified to even offer constructive criticism for fear that they're going to be reported to bioware and have their CD keys banned or something. If you think I'm exaggerating I'm not. I could name six people (myself included) who have been feeling this way recently. Maybe we're the only six, but that's six too many.

I should interject at this point and say that I think the idea of a player created/run mod that Gorb brought up is a pretty cool one, and I'm sure the right crew could make it work. But you'll notice that even some of the people who voted yes included little caveats like "I think it's a great idea! But I think it shouldn't be made by the players but rather people like myself." I don't think that's a good idea either, just neither of them measures up to choice #1. I cut my teeth on Dyso. I like the world, I like the characters, I like the quests. I think there should be more of all three.

But the fact that Gorb is talking about creating a new mod for this community doesn't rub me the right way. All I've heard from several moderators / DM's / etc. for the better part of three months now is that the players here are almost all nothing but whiny ingrates, and that they "hate all of [us]" and have every reason to. I don't believe this myself, and I'm probably not the only one, but if that's TRUE, what is a new mod going to accomplish? If anything this same group of players that is so ingrateful and whiny is just going to destroy the new mod too.

Don't get the impression that we don't have ingrateful whiners. We do, and most of us know who they are. But most of us also just ignore them and let them do their thing. If anything, those in power should be MORE capable of doing this, since they're the only ones who can truthfully say, "If you don't like it just leave. It's our business and we're doing it this way." Instead the few whiners bring us server wipes and grievers forums and now this "new mod" business. I work in tech support and if I let the bitchiest of my customers dictate my overall quality of life, I'd have OD'd on benadryl or something years ago.

Some of us are making suggestions and saying thanks - don't deny it. It's just that we're being ingored. Instead posts get read by people that bitch all the time and it drives DM's to go on killing sprees. And I'm not saying "ignored" to mean you need to cave to our demands... but don't go around claiming you never get constructive criticism and you never get thanks. I've provided both in the past and continue to.

I'm not going to post this as some holier than thou "Whiners should shut up" or "DM's should grow up" post because it's apparent that in all cases, that isn't always going to happen. I just think people are being kind of short sighted with some of the comments they make (and DEFINITELY with their reactions to those comments in the last few days) and in my opinion, it's the DM's who should react like adults in that situation. Some of our players act like asshat fifteen year olds because they ARE asshat fifteen year olds. Is it so hard to just try ignore the people that are in the margins and just deal with the rational people?

I would love to have a serious discussion about this with people. Please don't reply with "Dyso sucks" or "Shut up griever" because it's not like that. There are a lot of things going on here now though that are going to cost us some of the best players we have. Yeah you CAN say, "Who cares it's my sandbox and I'll do what I want," but that doesn't mean it's a good thing.

I don't think that DM's who think all the players are assholes should necessarily quit. And I don't think that players who think all the DM's are assholes should quit. But I have seen people in both of these categories react basically 180 degrees away from "constructive" and that's not helping anyone. I just wish those in power would just start ignoring people who are incapable of communicating in a civilized manner, and in turn start communicating in a civilized manner with those of us who are still here to have a good time. It would be so much less stress for everyone. If anything DOES kill this place, stress will be the guilty culprit.
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guitarrML
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will be one of "the six" that backs Merchant up on this one. You have to understand where I've come from to appreciate what it would take (and has taken) to make me leave Dyso. I started out as someone who NEVER had played a RPG. My buddies at work, Merchant being one of them, convinced me that it was fun and that NWN was great, along with this cool mod they found....Dysotopia. So, I purchased the game deciding that I was only going to play one type of character and that I would probably not like it....making it one of the games that sits on my shelf that I don't want to play. To my surprise it was the total opposite. I learned to roleplay and loved it, and I'm sure several on Dyso can vouch for the quality of said roleplay (not that I don't still have some to learn).

For many, almost all, of the reasons Merchant gave in his post, I have left Dyso for the time being. I started getting fed up when nothing much was happening (ie DM events, etc), but maybe that was just because we were spoiled with a bunch of said events there for a while. Then it moved on to the talk about the wipe. I know that a lot of you have enough time to level to 18 in 2 days, but some of us only get to play for an hour a day if we are lucky. It took me "forever and a day" to get my character developed and level up respectively. Whether you are an RP purist or not, I sure would hope you are big enough to admit that it is not fun running around at level 1 or 2 while almost everyone else on the server is 10 and up. Anyway.....then the whole change to the Champions mod or whatever....that was the straw that broke this camels back. As sick as everyone is of the "greivers", I'm sick of them not listening to those of us that have never once offered anything but a) praise/support and b) CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it. And oh yeah...what Merchant said icon_lol.gif
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Darkshadow666
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First let me say sorry about the typos

Well I guess it's my turn to step up the soapbox and give MerchanT a big thanks for doing what I have been reluctant to do as I am 1 of the 6 that he mentioned that stands beside him in his statements.

First I want to reitertate what MerchanT said I am not a griever and I am not whiner and I am not here to say Dyso sucks. I am replying back and supporting Dyso because I love it and I don't like where it is going. I am not pointing fingers at whose fault it is an isn't and we really shouldn't give a flying Badger whose fault it is, but we should be concentrating on how to fix the tension and stress between Players and Players and Players and Admin.

I remember playing Dungeon Siege and listening to MerchanT talk about NWN and how great Dyso is about 9 months ago now. It took a lot of persuading, but once he convinced me to buy a copy and join Dyso I was hooked right off the bat. There's something about this Mod that I feel a part of, and as of this last weekend I was considering saying goodbye for good. Then I thought about how much fun I have had RP'ing and PG'ing with a bunch of you, and how I don't want to lose that. For those of you who don't know of me I played Kalor of Kali-Tyr and Rayden Joxil primarily. Well as I of this weekend in Gorb's switching of the Mod's I lost Rayden Joxil who I really enjoyed playing and developing. I want to say first of all that I am not holding a grudge against Gorb for causing this, and I'd like to say to Gorb "Hey it's only a game sorry for making your ears ring about all the bad things I said about you (did I just type that?)".

What can be done to fix Dyso? Well honestly I don't know....I have some ideas and yes I will say I liked 2.x better, but so what I can adjust to 3.x.

First, start cracking down on negative posts against Dyso. If I was a forum Mod I would have banned about 15-20 people so far without thinking twice. If you are that stupid to say Dyso sucks and so and so Server is so much better you wont mind me banning you right?


Second, I think the players have to realize this in not 2.x!!! Hello welcome to 3.x. Deal with it...it is still is what you make of it regardless of the number of revisions. It is a roleplaying experience and powergaming experience for those that choose that road. Both are Correct in their view as long as they don't interfere with other players.

Third, It would be nice to see a united front from the Admins and Mods. You say we act like children well what kind of parent are you then? One that understands and teaches, or one that flies off the handle and abuses?

Fourth if an Admin or Mod doesn't like what they are doing get rid of them and put someone else in who still has the strive to try and make it better for all.

I think I have played and met a fair show of the people on the server, and I let my actions speak for themselves on what kind of player I am. If you have played with me then you know I have always tried to have a good time and I have not broken the rules.

I'd like to say thanks to a couple of people:
Conrad for keeping active the only Guild so far consistantly and for allowing me into your Order of the the Shining Blade twice, Gorb I also want to say thanks for giving me something to do when my kids are asleep at night by hosting the Mod and as your interactions as Prince Tanier, Glith for coming back and making some instant gratification changes for us, "Y" for all of the events that you held for us, and I want to say thanks to a couple of players that I feel are great additions to Dyso regardless if they started in LV or SV---Muric, Alizee, West Whitewind, Grok, Lythor Alomerii, Xavier Dotson, and Solo Core. There are others who did just a good as job as these people and I am sorry if I didn't include you.

Thanks for listening if you got this far icon_biggrin.gif
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ditto Ditto Ditto Ditto.
Finally, the people speak out! Agree with everything everybody said so far. Make me 1 of the 7 please. icon_smile.gif

To those oh-so-good-Dyso-players, ARE THESE PEOPLE WHINERS??? or GRIEVERS??? I think not.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, I'm 1 of the 6.

I stand by MerchanT and Darkshadow666. There is no need for me restate anything said above except that we work our arses off making Dyso a great place to play. We often sit together in real life and brainstorm RP opportunities, issues, and concepts. All of this is focused on improving the Dyso community. The recent messages from all of the Dyso administration are kind of slaps in our faces... We care too much and work too hard to be slapped around.

Thanks MerchanT for starting this thread.


Last edited by Giuoco on Tue Jul 08, 2003 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total
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Glorin
PostTue 07/08/03 3:37pm
Finally read it all, makes me 1 of 8 icon_surprised.gif  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another one of "MerchanT's Gang" reporting in, here. icon_wink.gif

I was playing Dungeon Siege with Darkshadow666 for months and was finally convinced by MerchanT to try the newest installment in the "Baldur's Gate" series (if you know what I mean). Darkshadow and I actually tried convincing HIM to come over to Dungeon Siege, but after playing on Dyso for not even a week last Fall I stopped playing D.S. *immediately*, and haven't picked it up since.

I admit I haven't played on more than half a dozen other servers, but Dyso just FEELS so good. And from the perspective of what usually goes on in the MOD and how you can play it, yes I do mean that in the present tense. I was really looking forward to .3x, but although I was a tad disappointed at some of the changes, I've rolled with 'em and I continue to like to play here.

Well, not so much recently, actually. The threat of a wipe going on for 3+ weeks now is one reason. However, as MerchanT mentioned, the threat of overly-severe action against us if I decide to voice my opinion these days has me feeling like "Oooookaaay....guess I'll step out for a bit until things cool down." Suffice to say, the actions of 3 of the DM's here over the past 2 weeks has caused me to stay out almost exclusively.

Yeah, yeah, you say big deal, what have I ever brought to the table here, right? I used to spam the public forums all the time, I almost never took part in an Event (although I honestly almost NEVER had the opportunity to be in one, even icon_cry.gif ), and I didn't always RP to the hilt. But I loved Dyso so much! And I still do - at least it's spirit! I don't want it to die, I'm not convinced yet that it's going to die, and I'll fight anyone who says it should die!

I'm not saying I'm anyone special, but I think that if enough of us have this kind of attitude - and I know of many people besides "the six of us (oops I mean 7, sorry Z icon_wink.gif )" who DO - then this can once again shine like it did when we had the 2 servers and a bajillion people playing!

One other thing - good to see Conrad saying that he does indeed want to bring a heavy fist to administration of people who detract from others' enjoyment of the MOD and forums. I think an excellent first step towards making this place great is to have a Zero Tolerance for A-Holes Policy.

(edit: make that 8, sorry Glorin icon_wink.gif )
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, people trying to make Dyso better. Its beautiful *sob* just beautiful.

Tried to do somethings with our assasins (The Shadow family), like being hired for political reasons for relatively small fees (about 6000). Not many people took to it really, well, who did it was great, "Nilas" for one was great, then the recon I attempted to do, basically spying on people or talking to them trying to pry out some useful political secrets you might only tell to strangers icon_biggrin.gif
That was probably one of the better times I had on Dyso, since it was all RP and fun to do.

Then with Crimson I usually try to do my stalking of the kravenwood path, sometimes trapping it. Less and less now since I lose traps with server restarts, but I try and its fun trying icon_biggrin.gif
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Glorin
PostTue 07/08/03 4:06pm
gorpie you fergot to say that ur one of 9  Reply with quote
 
Gorpie
PostTue 07/08/03 6:12pm
Goes without saying for me, I usually forget important and things like that.  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2003 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm I think I'm one of the whiners in these matters, though I try not to whine about the server but the people that play there... well thats what I did... nowadays I just post on the forum to annoy Falk...

I think your pretty right about alot of things in your posts [Yes I completely read it]
Especially your point about whining players and cheering players... and the dm's mostly listening to the whining side.. I mean no offense to anyone, since I'm hated by most allready, I really back you guys up in this, and would like to see some of the old dyso back again... Whatever Dyso did in 3.x destroyed it... it's the same as with a game I used to play... they kept wanting to make it more roleplaying and more enforcing to roleplay... and well at one point it just was impossible to gain anything anymore and people quitted massivly... I think Dyso went through this allready since they went from 120-140 players to 10-40 players...

I know if Dyso would change back I would come back... but with the new changes in SoU I want to test it first on a local vault and see whatever new is in it... something I loved doing on Dyso... making new characters and finding limits on it... I remember at one point having over 8 characters above level 11 and most even at 20... just to try it all out...

Why? Powergaming is bad isn't it? icon_question.gif
Is it that bad..? Gimme a server that enforces roleplaying and has alot of GOOD roleplayers on it actually.... Believe me you won't be able to give me more then 5 of them..
Powergaming is part of multiplayer... and it shouldn't be barked away or something... perhaps made harder but not impossible... Roleplaying and powergaming can go together..


Gah I'm rambling.... don't know what to say in english anymore so Ill do it in dutch
Later emot-yum.gif
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'm not one of the DMs, or module / server owners, and I know the message you are sending is really to them. But I am a moderator, which lets me see it from both perspectives. So I will speak from that perspective. icon_smile.gif

Merchant, Darkshadow, Giuoco, guitarrML, Maelstrom... I think you guys make some very good points. The gist of it is we are inadvertantly "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". The bathwater being all the griefers and whiners who should be sent packing and the baby being all the great players like you guys who add enormously to the fun of the mod. Players who are positive contributing members of the community and good rpers are hard to come by, and should be appreciated, and listened to.

All I can say is please hang in there with us, because I think we can get through this bad time for Dyso and restore a positive, mutually appreciative relationship between the good players and the admins. The light at the end of the tunnel for me is either passwording the server and getting rid of the troublemakers that way, or else a campaign of banning them from the forums as Darkshadow suggested. Or simply getting the module running well again, and with more to do to increase the fun. Through this we can get our positive community atmosphere back.

Please understand that the big guys in charge just got really, really frustrated with alot of crap they had to put up with, and each seemed to need to vent in their own way. But your point is well made... don't throw the baby out with the bath water. You guys are all great players who add alot to Dyso, and I appreciate what each of you add. I hope you will stay and see it through to the other side, because you guys would be missed.
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Conrad Hollows
PostWed 07/09/03 12:17am
I of course had the best way because I am, after all, the best. icon_smile.gif  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maelstrom696969 wrote:
One other thing - good to see Conrad saying that he does indeed want to bring a heavy fist to administration of people who detract from others' enjoyment of the MOD and forums. I think an excellent first step towards making this place great is to have a Zero Tolerance for A-Holes Policy.
icon_sad.gif And here I thought I had a good method of running the Contest of Champions and posting the names of why was pretty good. icon_rolleyes.gif I'll just have to find other ways. icon_twisted.gif
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of which, hrmm, that's very strange, I was playing Dungeon Siege for about 3 months, then I bought NWN and never touched that sad ass hack&slash again...

just a thought, fun for slashing and pvp, I retain my title as PvP Master in D.S. though so I guess I can rightly say Ownage Bitch to that game as well...


Oh, and Conrad, there are many ways to be the best..

The best Gem Crafter in the world can raise a student to be his skill... or the Student can kill the master and become the best. Works either way.

(Oh and Conrad, that was my inner drow speaking.) icon_twisted.gif

In a sick sort of speaking, but it's true, kick out the old "best" and your the new "best"

blah blah, whatever...

Just know I'm sad I ever played Dungeon Siege ...
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys make good points as Muric just said. I agree with most of what you are saying and definately believe that getting more players would have a revitalizing effect on the mod. Also just to clarify...altough i may appear to be a "fan boy" or someone who doesnt like people pointing out the bad things of the mod it is not so, I simply disagree with the way people post stuff here about the things they dont like.(Check Grievers forum, latest gorb post for details) Oh yeah by the way...awsome COC there was no one whining about anything for a change.
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