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whats a fella gotta do to be evil around here?
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not_so_unique
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2003 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Remind me precisely what that has to do with anything?


Remind me precisely how you feel about RP PK.
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Uin
PostThu 05/08/03 9:08pm
RP CK you mean.

No problem with RP CK, and my OSBness has jack shite to do with it before anyone incinuates.
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not_so_unique
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2003 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alread incinuated. Oh, sorry... didn't mean to make your blood simmer. At least you didn't cut loose on me.

CK? Oh, perhaps you mean "Character Killing." Okay, that would certainly be a more agreeable term for me as well... but most seem to call it PK whether it is CK or not. Maybe it really comes down to one's interpretation of "proper" RP. But it seems that there are those (in the OSB) who will always frown on both CK and PK. Well and fine as there is IC reason for paladins to do that. Unfortunately, these same have powers that go beyond IC. I'm not accusing you or anyone in particular because I really have no idea what OSB is up to behind the scenes. I only see what is put out there for me to see and I interpret it as such.
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Raven
PostThu 05/08/03 9:21pm
The problem with PK is that this server is mixed with RP and PG. And the RP killings affect the PG lvls.  Reply with quote
 
not_so_unique
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2003 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

the RP killings affect the PG lvls



Well put Raven.

That is what I have been trying to say in so many words.

So, if we were RP'ing instead of PG'ing, playing evil and PK'ing (or CK'ing as Uin astutely put it) might not be frowned on so much.
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Raven
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2003 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, but before rushing into the aurora and make Dysotopia a role-play only server, like giving chars 19 lvls upon entry, think about the fact that maybe it's the well balanced mixof PG and RP that makes dysotopia so addictive icon_biggrin.gif
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not_so_unique
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2003 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And let's take it one more step so as not to selectively bias our inclinations toward one or the other, thereby shorting ourselves... CK'ing adds to the challenge of PG'ing!!!
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Conrad Hollows
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2003 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I take umbrage at being characterized as being the "good" DM. Heh. I would view myself, DM align wise, as being more Lawful Neutral. I have been trying to encourage some decent evil RP when the chance arises. Those that know me also know I have no problems in messing around with the lives of the OSB characters a bit if the mood so strikes. For example ... the other day a nameless rogue asked me about forging a note to be found on a troll that indicated an impending attack on the OSB keep by an army of trolls and being paid for by Glorin. Glorin had nothing to do with it, of course, but I told the characters involved what they found, they got all worried and spent the next 20-30 minutes or so running around zones looking for this troll army while the people who had "planted" the evidence stood around laughing their asses off, watching them. Suffice to say a few of the OSB people were a bit annoyed at me for playing along with this ruse when they figured out it was a wild goose chase... oh well, too bad, deal with it.

I am more than willing to work with any player on event ideas so long as I feel it's something that can be done reasonably ... be it good or evil. A few players have figured this out (and they aren't even OSB), and bounce ideas off me every few days or so. Just bear in mind as I have said before the world itself tilts towards "good" and thus if the events are always running towards evil ends, I'm going to not use them all. Ideally I prefer scenarios which can have both good and evil endings ... or which are rather alignment neutral. The quest that got AliZee and company in so much hotwater was one of those quests where there were multiple possible outcomes.

And one other thing while I am at it ... OSB members showing up to investigate a murder or crime is a function of their RP/IC purpose. Showing up and just slaying everyone around because someone supposedly killed someone is not unless there is a pretty clear reason to do so. I keep hearing various groans about OSB people killing others and all I can say to that is send me a PM with the details and I will look into it and deal with it. I don't need (nor want) anyone misrepresenting the organization. Of course I also realize that some folks will blur the OOC/IC lines in an effort to confuse the masses to their own purposes. icon_mrgreen.gif
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not_so_unique
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2003 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conrad, you are the ONLY DM I have had the pleasure of encountering in-game (and only twice at that). I carefully read your posts on the forum and they always make sense (well, maybe after a second reading of some of them icon_cool.gif .

Anyway, I appreciate your efforts and the detail with which you carefully defined PK/CK rules in the C.R.O.E. So far, it seems to me that you have remained as unbiased toward good or evil as one can possibly be. I agree that the world tilts toward good, but "good'" after all, is merely an ideal whose definition varies greatly depending on events and circumstances. Were the Christian Crusades good?

The dichotomy of good and evil cannot be "black-and-white." Rather, the "balance" of good and evil teeters in shades of grey. Based on the limited interaction we have had, it seems that you would agree.

OOC, I tend to be a "goodie." IC, my character is chaotic... sometimes siding with good, sometimes siding with evil... generally siding with himself! icon_wink.gif
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Solo_Core
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2003 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

take umbrage at being characterized as being the "good" DM. Heh. I would view myself, DM align wise, as being more Lawful Neutral. I have been trying to encourage some decent evil RP when the chance arises.

i can testify to that, i remember something with kravenwood guards, stakes.... ah yes those were nice things icon_twisted.gif

as for playing evil in my opinion what a lot of people here do is simply metagaming, chaotic might be brutal and cruel and not caring but there is one thing they do care about and that is themselves, and people don't go around randomly killing others for one simple reason, that's bloody stupid, people will hunt you down like a dog untill you are deader then one of glorins ancestors. _especially_ when there are people walking around with a carsomyr +5 which is a holy blade that would totally rent you asunder. but there is one reason why people are this careless here, lemme tell it to you in one word, respawn. people forget that their character is supposed to be afraid of death. going around thinking hell i'm inmortal anyway is to me a total exploitation of a server privilige, the privilige that your character doesn't have to be totally dead but can come back.
and there is no way that someone with such an attitude would ever have gotten to level 17, for the townspeople would have either cut him down or locked him up.
my advice would be:
fear death, it's what your character would do.
this doesn't mean you can't take any risks but think them over.
don't go around killing everyone because only complete stupid idiots think they can survive that. and stupid idiots would never get to level 14-20 icon_wink.gif
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Conrad Hollows
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2003 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose I should define more what I mean by "good" when I say it in most cases.

Generally speaking when I invoke "good" I am talking moreso about a "live and let live approach." Negotiating peaceful resolutions, trying to keep the cfolks happy and healthy, and that sort of thing. Sometimes force does become necessary in these matters, but force should generally be the last resort. It's often a matter of not attacking unless the case is clear or the enemy attacks first.

Of course the alignment good, as with the alignment evil, comes with many nuances which do not so nicely fit into this picture and your example of the Christian Crusades in and around 1100-1400 AD bear that out. Surely the (mainly) Teutonic soldiers viewed their purpose as good, noble, and for the glory of God. The Moors, Arabs, and other Semitic peoples found in and around the "Holy Land" surely didn't see it that way when armies of mounted and armored soldiers moved through, killing pretty much anything that moved.

Many of these towns that were effectively razed were home to people of Aramaean decent, many of whom were actually Orthodox Christians. History lesson ... it is believed by biblical scholars that the "Historical Jesus" spoke Aramaic. There is a rather popular war-time refrain which arose from this very issue ... one of the Crusader commanders asked his superior (who was a Bishop I believe) what the army could do to determine who were the Christians and who were the heathens in some of these towns. The reply to the commander was "Kill them all, God will know his own." This is where we get the ol' "Kill'em all, let God sort'em out" refrain. The "good" here would indeed be a matter of perspective.
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not_so_unique
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2003 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solo Core, I have followed that line of thinking my entire time in Dysotopia... with my CN character. He acts impulsively but rarely threatens someone unless he stands to lose something (for instance those who like to loot corpses while my character continues to kill the remaining horde) and he has killed other PCs for money from time-to-time (as a mercenary/assassin). He can rarely be found in town as he is a barbarian and would not likely be appreciated by the townsfolks as barbarians have a non-lawful class restriction. This prevents me from participating in many DM events, I'm sure.

Admittedly, there are times when I have to put aside my OOC desire to not suffer the death penalty or to gain the advantages that more "civil" characters have. Instead, I play a situation like a barbarian would... with honor for the fight!!! Even when fighting creatures, my character ALWAYS fights to the death... he never runs! Retreat and regroup to spread out the foes, yes, but that is a strategic move in the battle scenario. He NEVER runs out of an area to escape death... no matter how certain it is. It really is a shame that this type of individual RP goes unrecognized. But this is not PnP. There are far too many whiners and opportunists in-game to occupy DM's time.
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2003 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okey one tougth im CE im not crazy im undead maybe lost my mind but how should i remember if im crazy
Shadows seek too destroy all life and about shoving a ray gun up my-----

How about i stick a ------- and a ------- in your -------

icon_twisted.gif icon_twisted.gif

And i do RP evil wery well icon_biggrin.gif

And can OSB actually jail me for doing something IC like lets say murdering innocent when it pleases me too feed
Kidnapping little girls as a sacrifice
or just do what i always do be evil wich has made many peapol angry at me wich is pretty fun and last word


Im immortal muhahahaa

Unless you find my body and burn it wich isnt wery likely icon_twisted.gif
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not_so_unique
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2003 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good synopsis of the Crusades, Conrad! And perhaps another model for evil characters in Dyso. That is the kind of evil that I imagine... a very well-defined ambition that can only see the means to the end, irregardless of the circumstances and possibly even in the name of "good." How perfectly evil that is!!!
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Conrad Hollows
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2003 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did I not explain this?! Well I'll say it again ...

JAILING AS IT CURRENTLY EXISTS IS AN OOC ADMINISTRATIVE FUNCTION

It is not an organizational/guild thing nor an IC/RPed thing. Jailing is a player matter used to take players out of a situation or area where they are acting basically to just disrupt the play of others. The moderators are players who have been picked to look out for people who are acting like asses by exploiting, griefing, or otherwise doing stuff just to be a big pain in the ass to players. Playing EVIL is fine ... but since there is often the cover used by some "well when I killed all those people in the valley, I was just RPing," if you are playing "evil" you need to be extra sure that your evil acts are easily seen as roleplayed. This is the single most reason why playing evil is difficult ... because you have an added burden of trying to make it pretty clear that you are playing a role and not just walking around killing anyone at random for laughs. To those who say "well killing at random is what I do, that is my role" ... I will only say "don't cry to me if you get jailed."

This is why I was stressing the player-to-player communication and RPing it up in other posts ... if you do that, others are less inclined to think badly of it. Sure some still will complain no matter what, but at least you have done your part and held up your end of the bargain. Also if a moderator is around and you are RPing it plain as day, there is much less chance for a moderator to jail you for griefing. The system isn't perfect ... some people will still get jailed sometimes when perhaps they should not have, on the flip-side a lot of people don't get jailed when they should have. Another consideration is that some players, I won't say most .. but some ... like having a "nemesis" to them around. The thing is it has to be a mutual thing and there has to be respect between the two players. Player A can't easily decide to play the nemesis of Player B's character without B more or less deciding that they trust A to play it well and not go overboard. If A hunts B relentlessly and B isn't cool with it ... B is eventually going to complain about it.

I have, along with Falk and others, said for a while that there needs to be a return to having jailing available for IC matters as well as the current OOC issues. That would place groups like the White Gaurd and Kravenwood Militia (as defunct as it may be) with jailing power within their zone of influence. This sort of jailing would be for IC violations of the law, not the OOC grief-stuff I've already talked about. This sort of IC jailing would also allow the jailed to have a chance to break out and such ... rather than the OOC jailing where you're not supposed to break out, you're supposed to cool off and wait to talk to the DM/mod about what happened. Breaking out of an IC jailing would be acceptable RP ... breaking out (exploiting out more specifically) of an OOC jailing is subject to even harsher punishment.
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Jon316
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2003 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am glad we have people RPing evil, like a little guy who was pick pocketing me at level 8 while I was running from BF to KW, except this guy, "DarkinG AngeL" was like level 17 and was all uber with his ring of invis pping a level 8 and getting my bandit plans and an ale, damn him!


But I'm not worried about theives, but mostly, the evil I like to see is people like Darking, darkovn, zufal, ect, those are decent examples, but not truly the evil I like... where the hell can you go to find a good evil?

Only one I know ... doesn't play anymore...
...
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zak_fel
PostSat 05/10/03 6:24am
Im guessing hes talking abt a certain mage with a capital D icon_twisted.gif  Reply with quote
 
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