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On goblins ...

 
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Conrad Hollows
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:59 pm    Post subject: On goblins ... Reply with quote

Someone asked me to render a decision on the validity of goblins as player characters and in my usual tendency towards Conradisms, I avoided a direct answer ... I did, however, say the following ... which may be of use to some folks in thinking about the whole thing.

-=-=-=-=-

I am not of a mind to render a verdict on this one way or the other ... but I will say this ...

According to the rules, both of the game engine itself as well as the source books, you generally can't play a goblin, just like you can't play a troll or an orc. The source books are perhaps irrelevant, so I will just stick to the game engine. If you could play a goblin, then goblin would be a race you could pick from ... but the NWN engine does not offer that selection. Most of the goblins play "halflings calling themselves goblins" in the strictest sense of things. By the engines viewpoint and all related issues, the goblins are thus not goblins but halflings.

I am not going to sit back and totally judge the RP issues of this in a black and white sense. I will, however, say that reactions to goblins are going to be distinctly different than they would be to the halflings that the characters actually are. That being what it is ... if you decide to declare that you are in fact playing some sort of "monster race" or even "race outside the norms" then you must accept some negative stigma for so doing and you will get characters who want to kill you for just being what you are.
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Jon316
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2003 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I uploaded a screenshot of one of the subraces once, it was cool, I played an ogre, it changed my race to an ogre and my appearance and every stat from the D&D books I guess... but mostly, it didn't enforce legal characters and the way it changed your stats was by literally setting the base to what ever the subrace bonus was for stats and not a temporary magical effect... although races like Aasimar or Tiefling still had their damage resistances as a temp magical effect... which would be easily fixed if they used skins for the PC, as in creatures hides, simply check on levelup and it would updat it... so even that is fixable, but generally speaking, no, subraces are not playable by the NWN engine unless you can do some serious programming....


So simply take Conrads view on it for what it is... as I think he sums it up, that is the rules for this server, so that's how it's going to be on the goblin issue... at least from what I can tell....

It's all good, too bad ... I never got to PK one goblin onsight!!! oh well I guess I found it too hard to kill a special goblin... remember, I am the Judge and if I decide that they are allowed to live, then I shall accept them... (IC I mean, lol).
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok Conrad i see what you meen and i agreed.... BUT im hati the goblin and i like to play goblin and i deal wit the - by plaing goblin and that find.... but if (i know i is hard) you can make us start in a cave were we can buy food weápon amour and sell gem's ect..... we can live out a role fully we wil not go near elerina then couse we not NEED to...... i wil from now try stay away from elerinaa but ther a still thick i need ther... and sec i hope Conrad (i know we not ask frist) but i hope you like out Rp i play IRL rp in meny years i hope you like my RP so that all hope to soon start in a cave...

Love Hati the goblin icon_mrgreen.gif
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Conrad Hollows
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I consider myself in the Griff camp regarding goblins ... since a decent amount of people, at the least, like to have them around for target practice, I am not terribly concerned with them. Were it not for that, I'd probably say we'd be better off without them.

When the complaints come in from "goblins" that they are being harassed for being a goblin, I refer to my above sentiments ... i.e. if you didn't want that, you should have picked a standard race. If you can deal with the goblin hunting, then so be it.
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Pol2
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok Conrad... i can deal wit it i am a monster that it!!!
but what i say is just that IF you can make us start in let's call it a cave cuty we wil not make troubel in elerina for we wil never com ther..... PS. i like to play goblin so i hope you wil help us wit the city prb
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Conrad Hollows
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2003 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The following also may assist in clarifying ...

Effortless characters, even if goblins, should not be getting PKed. Everything pertaining to the goblins is amply covered by the CROE ... I am not going to get into a big thing about if they are allowable or not, good RP or not, etc. I am going to just stick to application of the guidelines as they sit ... and that means there is nothing preventing people from hunting goblins. What they are prevented from doing is killing the same characters over and over in a relatively short period of time unless the victim comes back looking for more trouble. That applies to not only goblins, but also goblin hunters.
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Lord Randall
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2003 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FYI - There is a world of info out there on playing "monster" PC's in sourcebooks. But like Conrad said (I feel I've typed that line too much today icon_biggrin.gif ), sourcebooks aren't all that relevant. I thought it was an interesting character spin, and I like it ten million times more than the crop of uber pre-teen age characters, of which are explicitly stated NOT to occur. "Me want bottle, now!" *casts Wail killing parents* um, yeah, I don't think so.

As for starting someplace else, like a cave with your own weapons shop, don't hold your breath. Sorry.

KOS on Goblins... yeah, you're a goblin, sort of comes with the territory. BUT, if a goblin invoked mercy, wished to come in peace as it were, and was non-aggressive, I would technically think that "good" aligned characters would at least have to consider giving them a chance and not just killing them. What if they know the secret entrance to the Dracolich's Dark Dungeon o' Depressing Depths?

But what do I know?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, but think about one thing, if you KOS goblins it would have to be the same for drow, demons, ect, all the supposedly evil races.... LOL

Drow are more likely to be attacked than goblins even, but I see drows running around all happy and mingling with everyone all over the place... BZZZT wrong.

That shouldn't happen in an RP world, the ONLY, and I mean ONLY exception should be the best damned RP reason period, even Drizzt Do'Urden doesn't walk through a town without problems... but he has fame in the north so it's getting better for him, but take a look how long it STILL is taking. about 50 years roughly.

Seriously, you don't talk with drow, you kill them, that's a fact amongst common people... while it might be different with adventurers, the same general rule still prevails.

So if you let goblins run through town without attacking, or getting all friendly, next time take a timeout to think that goblins are all evil creatures that rape, murder, and plunder cities, towns and even fortresses... albeit as a army.

And drow use them as slaves.

So you tell me, when you see a happy drow walking about town, he better damn well be unarmed and well known as well as vouched for by the mayor of the city before he is allowed even a slight existence in a town...
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Lord Randall
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When it comes to seeing millions of Drizzt wannabes Jon, I feel your pain, and you have my official permission ( icon_lol.gif ) to hurt them severely.

Yeah, goblins are evil. Yeah you generally don't reason with them. Yeah, they sort of by default start in El. Um... not much you can do about it, so I'm thinking let them clear out of town. Afterwards, if they want back in, well... clobber them. They certainly aren't trying to play "good" goblins from all I've heard. And sorry guys, but goblins just don't have access to shops, that's why their equipment, much like them, is crude.

My last post was more of a "they're here, they can't help they start in El, so let them run off to go RP like they want". Maybe they'd love to setup an encounter with you somewhere. But like Jon was saying, most normal campaign settings, you don't stop to chat with the friendly drow, stop by to have afternoon tea with an ogre mage, and then wrap up the evening with a delightfully demonic dinner guest.
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Jibi, Goblin Shaman
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Randall wrote:
Yeah, goblins are evil. Yeah you generally don't reason with them. Yeah, they sort of by default start in El. Um... not much you can do about it, so I'm thinking let them clear out of town. Afterwards, if they want back in, well... clobber them. They certainly aren't trying to play "good" goblins from all I've heard. And sorry guys, but goblins just don't have access to shops, that's why their equipment, much like them, is crude.


I agree with that (in theory). I have managed to get several good items from the NPC goblins on the Eastern Plains. In fact in Dyso, the goblins seem to be quite different thatn in ALL the fantasy settings I have seen/read. I'd gladly fight my way though Ogre Country before stepping into the Eastern Plains. Are you with me on that?

I also agree that a different starting location and such is the best but most unlikely solution as well. So until then we can:
icon_idea.gif ignore the goblins in town, (hard to do)
icon_idea.gif assume that the guards just aren't strong enough to keep them out, (unlikely as I have never seen a Unity that is afraid of anything)
icon_idea.gif think that for some devious and underhanded reason the mayor has made some deal with them, (this could be several events in and of itself)
icon_idea.gif pretend they are disquided as (wretched) Halflings,
icon_idea.gif assume that when you see a character called "Jibi, Goblin Shaman" or "Hati, Chaos Moon Goblin" or ...well you get the idea.... what you are actually looking at is "Human Runner who works for the Highest Bidder who right now happens to be a Goblin"

Any of these ideas work for me if we need to go there. We could even use a combination of the above.

Post and let me know you thoughts.
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Gorpie
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well none of these seem plausible really.. if people want work done they get their underlings to do it or they do it themselves and usually (except in very rare cases) the underlings are not goblins. Secondly, the mayor is dealing with goblins?? Get a new mayor tyvm. Thirdly, you can pretend they are halflings but they would have to wear a helmet all of the time and if someone asked you to removed it you would have to either avoid taking it off bycoming up with a plausible excuse or you ran off shielding your face. Finally, if they are indeed runners who are goblins then would they be going from A to B, not stopping to talk to anyone and if they did stop they would want to know who they were working for so they can SMITE you and SMITE him too. Rowr.

We could ignore their existance however I would very much prefer if you made your existance in towns as minimal as possible. Also, getting your own vendor might be easy enough to do if the DM's feel like it but your own city?! Do you not think you are pushing your luck? Just go for what is achievable, ey? Also, I would prefer anytime you are in town that you wear a helmet to hide your identity.

Thats just my opinion anyway.

:Gorpie:
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Sarah
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally enjoy the extra conflict that the Goblins create. Characters we love to hate. I've had no problems with them, and have made "friends" with 3 of them. They've all been rather nice to me.

Regardless, I think it may be a good idea to have some sort of Goblin merchants (why couldn't this race in theory set up their own merchant place to buy things, everyone else has places where they can buy their equipment) or another place that they can start out. Until then, I don't see why people are getting their panties in a bunch. There were spawned monsters in Eleriina killing everyone and everything with the DM was on, and all sorts of new creatures in places they usually arent, I dont see why a character monster can't wander into town as well.

Just my two cents. You can keep the change *grins* icon_cool.gif
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As one of the mod designers, I'll be honest with you - establishing a unique starting point for different races is not a very high priority.

Sorry, but it just isn't. Will it happen someday? Dunno. My focus is a) lag, and b) player quests and events.

I do know that Bri is working on saving character locations to the persistance database so that your location will be saved across server restarts - and that might help... but we need to complete the code, successfully test and make sure that it doesn't add a ton of lag back into the server.

That's about the best answer for you at this point... don't hold your breath for a unique starting location...
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Jibi, Goblin Shaman
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gorpie wrote:
Finally, if they are indeed runners who are oblins then would they be going from A to B, not stopping to talk to anyone and if they did stop they would want to know who they were working for so they can SMITE you and SMITE him too. Rowr.
:Gorpie:


No I was saying NON-goblin runners. and who would question someone who just carried a bunch of stuff into town, sold it and left? No different than any other adventurer, right?
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Gorpie
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do goblins sell gems or just keep them because they are pretty and shiny?
I don't know. Money can't have much use for goblins but exchanging items for others.
So I think it is a little different because I don't see why they would do it, I am trying to create a character who doesnt work with money but with gifts and favours and while the webweaving is quite hard at the end of the day it will be good since I wont have to deal with any of those pesky money issues. Could you do perhaps think of something similar but not trade gems for money, keep your gems and use them as money?
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Jibi, Goblin Shaman
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I did try that because I thought it was a good idea but.... when you loose 15 opals and 9 saphires in ONE day to pick pocketting, it goes quick!

Jibi wasa neeb big Whomper fer smashing Bone Peeble ana Human at ship say he sell Jibi dis fer much gold but he no neeb shinies. ((See my dilema?))
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Gorpie
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I stole 10 of those opals, w00p icon_wink.gif

Well... I think its a bit harder than usual and you would come across difficulties... but if you want to RP *winks suspiciously*

:Gorpie:
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

but if I were truely roleplaying as soon as a halfling even comes close to my pocket, "Stend Bek! Jibi kill!!!!!!" even those effortless cretins icon_twisted.gif
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Gorpie
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hehe, I have no objections to that, kill all the effortless characters you want icon_biggrin.gif

Of course I don't condone purposeful attacks on effortless characters, if you toke him to go away and he came close that would count as aggression :S kill them then and its right! Kill them halflings! But don't kill Crimson my thief emot-yum.gif
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