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War: The Aftermath (War part 2)

 
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ShadowCore
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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 9:54 pm    Post subject: War: The Aftermath (War part 2) Reply with quote

Yes, War. Bah @ you Nefi, I have two things to say here:
First of all, I want to get the war thread re-opened and this added to it. Second of all:


Alright, the war is over, and things have been done that can't be un-done, sadly. Saddam has fled the country, and major players have as well. There has been no progress in establishing a government, in fact, there is total and absolute anarchy ruling the country right now. Violence is still in place, and still, not a single SHRED of evidence for Weapons of Mass Destruction has been found. I'm not talking about some small mini-bio research centre, because that centre didn't even come close to any kind of weapon which would be threatening enough to be called a weapon of mass destruction.

Seriously, all you pro-war people, where the **** are you now with arguments saying "He sure has WMD". I'd like to know that, because the fact that I still haven't seen a single shred of evidence for that entire bloody ****ing war pisses me off greatly. I would've consented and gone with the Bush-section if Ihad gotten any evidence, I would've given in and I would've just let it be, but I will NOT let this be since this war was not only uneccessary, it has only amounted to one VERY small positive thing: Saddam isn't ruling anymore. But that's the only positive thing, the man is probably still alive, and Baghdad is even worse now according to many. PLEASE tell me that there was a reason for all of this seemingly irrational stuff.


And to close this up, I would like to say something. Bush had said in January that Iraq could only have those weapons to do one of three things: Dominate, intimidate or attack. Now, those three things sound VERY similar to what a certain powerful country I happen to know does, and I believe it is called the UNited States of America.....
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Little Teapot
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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 10:05 pm    Post subject: Re: War! Reply with quote

ShadowCore wrote:
Violence is still in place, and still, not a single SHRED of evidence for Weapons of Mass Destruction has been found. I'm not talking about some small mini-bio research centre, because that centre didn't even come close to any kind of weapon which would be threatening enough to be called a weapon of mass destruction.

And to close this up, I would like to say something. Bush had said in January that Iraq could only have those weapons to do one of three things: Dominate, intimidate or attack. Now, those three things sound VERY similar to what a certain powerful country I happen to know does, and I believe it is called the UNited States of America.....


ok, #1... what about those like... 50 55 gallon barrels full of VX nerve gas? I think those qualify as chemical weapons *checks a small journal in his back pocket*

...

yeah... Chemical weapons count as Weapons of mass destruction...

oh, and about the "Dominate, intimidate or attack" thing... you first must realize the president doesn't write his own speeches, is too stupid to get someone who can do a good job on them, and is a "Don't mess with texas" kind of guy. Most of the conflicts the US participates in are already in progress. Kosovo conflict, Vietnam, and hell, even the Iran/Iraq war (which we helped out in) was already going. we just speed things up and reduce civilian casualties with weapons that can actually hit something accurately, and with enough force to stop it. (for instance: precision bombs. if we didn't have those people would be whining because we took out their city while attempting to hit a single building. now they whine because someone was taking a piss on aforementioned building when mr. Kablooey came in.)

this space is reserved for further Shadow Core destruction
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Matthijs says:
   oh ja, ik weet het zonet nog niet
Matthijs says:
   het ziet er toch wel een beetje naar uit dat we nederlands praten
Matthijs says:
   mischien moet ik dan maar eens vaker nederlands gaan praten
Matthijs says:
   kan je me ook meteen niet op al mijn spellinsfouten wijzen
There you have it! indisputable proof Solo's a fascist!!!
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ShadowCore
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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In case you hadn't noticed TP, that still doesn't warrant him warning others NOT to do something while he's doing it himself.

Also, the only conflict you quote which is vaild, is Kosovo. In Vietnam , the USA got involved where they absolutely had no right to other than to hate communism.
Worse is the fact that they made that war last very long, and caused an immense number of casualties.

And in Iran/Iraq, they were being assy as hell and did NOT speed things up. First they help the Kurds together with Iran. Then Iraq strikes at the Kurds, and the USA suddenly retreats together with Iran. All they did was cause more casualties. After that, they helped BOTH Iran AND Iraq, just to make the war last LONGER so they wouldn't have nay trouble with either of those countries. Now, if that sounds like speeding things up to you, you're not thinking very well.



Now, as for the gas. Could you please quote some kind of source or point me to something, since I can't find ANY mention of that ANYWHERE. Actually, if they did have that, then why did the USA government say that the weapons"Might've been destroyed before the war"???
Actually, since they did say that, doesn't that mean that they were attacking with even less reason, since they were attacking to DISARM Iraq, and since Iraq apparently might've already destroyed any weapons, why attack them??

Btw, TP, we're talking CURRENT events here, not 1998 events, or something like that.
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Little Teapot
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PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2003 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shadow core and I have agreed that the history channel doesn't show enough about vietnam.

we also agree that Bush was a dumbass, and shouldn't have been elected in the first place.

but the other candidate wasn't so hot either.

stupid 2 party system.
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Matthijs says:
   oh ja, ik weet het zonet nog niet
Matthijs says:
   het ziet er toch wel een beetje naar uit dat we nederlands praten
Matthijs says:
   mischien moet ik dan maar eens vaker nederlands gaan praten
Matthijs says:
   kan je me ook meteen niet op al mijn spellinsfouten wijzen
There you have it! indisputable proof Solo's a fascist!!!
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2003 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you know why Americans are so violent ? It's because the genepool from which they have been constructed containts so much bad apples. Before independency, they sent mostly criminals and low-lifes down there icon_biggrin.gif
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2003 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That certainly explains a lot! Also explains why there are so few Americans with a Dutch heritage icon_twisted.gif
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I'll vote Ecusidor. Go you!!!!!!!!!!! You're also one of the best bards on the isle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(the only competitor for THAT title seems to be Kathryn icon_biggrin.gif)
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2003 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if i was moderator of the forum here i would gladly re open the thread for you... lol... i followed up on that thread and it has a lot of issues but ultimately i think why nefi locked it was because every possible issue was already talked about i guess icon_question.gif but anyways, i think war is only nessacary (bleh @ spelling) if you need to defend yourself, or get out from under oppression..
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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2003 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drudo Wisto wrote:
Do you know why Americans are so violent ? It's because the genepool from which they have been constructed containts so much bad apples. Before independency, they sent mostly criminals and low-lifes down there icon_biggrin.gif


and after they sent people that were shot for being protestant.

anyhow, what's your excuse for austrailia not killing people? they have the same deal.

plus, the majority of the american people didn't approve of the war beforehand. it's mostly because we have a dumbass in the white house that we attacked Iraq anyhow. hell, Bush can't even focus on one thing. after/during/slightly before the war he accused MU of having an unconstitutional AA program. hell, during Afganistan he went to camp david for a vacation. he's fucking weird.

plus, don't forget: Oil prices go down, economy goes up!
one mroe thing: cheyney's company (I believe) got a large share of the moneesss from Iraq.

Ecusidor wrote:
That certainly explains a lot! Also explains why there are so few Americans with a Dutch heritage

that better be sarcasm.

and Jon, the Afgani's couldn't defend/get themselves out of oppression. that's why we intervened.
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Matthijs says:
   oh ja, ik weet het zonet nog niet
Matthijs says:
   het ziet er toch wel een beetje naar uit dat we nederlands praten
Matthijs says:
   mischien moet ik dan maar eens vaker nederlands gaan praten
Matthijs says:
   kan je me ook meteen niet op al mijn spellinsfouten wijzen
There you have it! indisputable proof Solo's a fascist!!!


Last edited by Little Teapot on Fri May 30, 2003 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uhhh, yeah that was sarcasm, but I'd like to know why it says "Raven wrote" ?? Im pretty sure my name is Ecusidor... icon_rolleyes.gif
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Master ecuisidor you are the one and ony bard in the whole island, as i have said before to you, you are the man!!!!!


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I'll vote Ecusidor. Go you!!!!!!!!!!! You're also one of the best bards on the isle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(the only competitor for THAT title seems to be Kathryn icon_biggrin.gif)
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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2003 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

icon_redface.gif
umm... I quoted it using the standard [quote="Raven] method. typing in the person's name...

sorry aboot that, fixing
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Matthijs says:
   oh ja, ik weet het zonet nog niet
Matthijs says:
   het ziet er toch wel een beetje naar uit dat we nederlands praten
Matthijs says:
   mischien moet ik dan maar eens vaker nederlands gaan praten
Matthijs says:
   kan je me ook meteen niet op al mijn spellinsfouten wijzen
There you have it! indisputable proof Solo's a fascist!!!
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PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2003 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry 3 months NO evidence except 2 vans that may have had other uses...all the supposed claims of evidence by high placed leaks to Fox News have beed refuted(((Does the Fox News work like the NY times reporters and make up it stories 100 per cent ??))...The argument for war was remember to stiop the spread of WMD.Intelligence was invented and basically the GB and US governments have said it is right to lie to their own people cos we know better.

The suprising thing is the numbers of people that still support the Cause even though its flimsy nature has been shown.But it took I believe many years before the reality of Vietnam became known to the US people and protest began.people seem to trust their leaders a little too much.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2003 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I HATE THE USA!!!!! WAAAAAAGGGHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
Stupid pricks, BUsh trying to sabotage things peoplehave worked for for YEARS, by researching MININUKES. What a completely retarded fool he is. BAH.

((I'm not in the mood to go deeply into everything, so just respond and I'll say something))
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After a good period of time and possibly apt after Bushes admission today that there was NO evidence that Saddam had links to terrorism...Can those Gung Ho supporters of the War ***see War thread**who claimed all the evidence would soon be seen....that saddam was a threat to the US.Please explain now what the reason for the War was???.
That Saddam was a bad guy ill readily admit but there are lots out there also killing there own people.The question to answer is why this one and why ignore all the others and why lie about the reasons?

maybe wecan have a reasoned debate well see.

One Caveat please No evidence a La Fox network ****it lies better than the British or Americam governments .................but with a lot less style.
.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*Thinks about writing local congressman and getting a petition together to invade all those Dutch bastards with all there stores of WMD* icon_mrgreen.gif
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It basically comes down to this. Resident Bush isn't president. Jeb delivered Florida for him.

People hated him for it, so he had to make the people come together. Whap. Planes. Yay terrorists, you just saved Bush's hide... ok... well for a little while anyway. America rallied together, you all loved Bush. Two years later, the American people have jumped on another bandwagon... the "the economy sucks ass, do something other than fighting all these big bad guys."

Listen, these countries have been this way for years. Who are we to say that how we live is paradise? We cant. Other countries hate America, for the sole fact that if they piss us off, theyre thinking we're going to come after them next.

Seriously. Would we like it if we had troops from other countries coming in and telling us "Look, you guys are a bunch of ignorant fucks.... THIS is how you should live." No. Of course not.

This war was for political purposes only. The weapons of mass destruction is a bunch of bullshit.

If they found Weapons of Mass Destruction NOW in Iraq, would you be more prone to believe the weapons were there, in Iraq, the whole time, OR that they were planted by the United States government in order to justify our going to war?

Found on a site:

Quote:

Evidence is mounting that the Bush Administration manipulated evidence that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction in the months leading up to the preemptive attack. According to the Washington Post, Congressional Republicans have already spurned demands for a serious probe, referring the matter to closed door hearings of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

The Bush Administration repeatedly asserted that it knew with certainty that Iraq had such weapons. This argument was the only argument that resonated with the public, and was essential in paving the way for putting our soldiers and many civilians at risk.

The failure by U.S. or British troops thus far to find any weapons of mass destruction, following the earlier failure by U.N. inspection teams, calls into question the Bush Administration’s honesty. Some are arguing that the unfolding story of mass killings and torture by Iraqi forces are justification enough for the war. While we disagree with that point, it is utterly irrelevant to the importance of discovering whether the Bush Administration knowingly lied.

The failure by U.S. or British troops thus far to find any weapons of mass destruction, following the earlier failure by U.N. inspection teams, calls into question the Bush Administration’s honesty. Some are arguing that the unfolding story of mass killings and torture by Iraqi forces are justification enough for the war. While we disagree with that point, it is utterly irrelevant to the importance of discovering whether the Bush Administration knowingly lied.


What you people fail to understand, those of us that are Americans is this: WE have weapons of destruction. WE have the technology to do what we want when we please. The worlds police? No. How about the Worlds Terroists.

Thats just my two cents. Keep the change.
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Last edited by Sarah on Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taken from another website at Bethal College http://www.bethelks.edu/collegian/archives/000409.php

Quote:

Ani DiFranco, whom Ian Gingrich-Gaylord nominated to be Ralph Nader’s running mate, says in a recent song, “We hold these truths to be self evident: #1 George W. Bush is not president; #2 America is not a true democracy; #3 the media is not fooling me.” Well, Ms. DiFranco is just one of a growing number of Americans who are realizing that the spoon used to feed us the news is bent to favor those in power.




So what makes a great “top story” in the news these days? According to the Associated Press, the “top story” in 2002 was Bush and his cohorts making preparations for war with Iraq—making war plans, not even action, just pointing fingers and talking about invisible weapons of mass destruction over there. Something is wrong when the top selling story is making plans for war. The news is an excellent medium for propaganda purposes because so many people take it for the truth. It’s no coincidence that the “top story” of George W. Bush pushing his war with Iraq helped him sell his war even more.


On Friday night I was over at a friend’s house doing the usual Friday night things like eating falafel, sipping tepid water and watching the news commentary show “Hardball” on MSNBC. Just before a commercial break, they announced that in the next segment they would be talking about the potential attack of Iraq by the U.S. The actual words the commentator said were, “George W. Bush and his war with Iraq…I mean, our upcoming war with Iraq.” To me the wording of his “misspeak” seems to hold a lot of truth. What it really boils down to is ol’ Dubya wanting to have his own little war with Iraq (just like daddy did), vanquish the “bad guy” Saddam (just like daddy didn’t), and come back home with few more billion gallons of oil on his back. However, this time it might not be so little, and that is what they are not telling you in the headlines. What is Bush’s war with Iraq going to cost the U.S.? The government says around $50 billion, though more realistic estimates are at between $100 and $200 billion. I don’t even know how to count that high. More important than the dough, what will be the cost in terms of human life—on both ends of the missiles?


The “top story” this past week was the tragic event of the space shuttle Columbia explosion. Flags were flown at half-mast for these seven deceased astronauts, and rumblings of war were quieted momentarily. The deathspeak is picking up again as flags are again flown at the top with pride, but in these matters there are many more lives on the line than just seven. The loss of human life by accident is tragic, but by purposeful war is unthinkable. The United States would be potentially creating a situation in Iraq at least a thousand times worse than the Sept. 11attacks, only now the wording is “pre-emptive strike,” not “attack”–isn’t a “strike” worse--oh wait, it’s not on U.S. soil, so it doesn’t matter.


Something is sad, something in me screams out against the world when the top selling story is making plans for war.


Back to the “Hardball” commentator, what really bothered me was the phrase “upcoming war with Iraq.” He said it like it was already a done deal—and maybe I’m just naďve here and think that something else can be done, but I sure believe that there are multiple peaceful options which have yet to be pursued in this “crisis.” This situation was not even a crisis until the Bush Administration chose to make it one, seeing as the American economy was already in trouble. And what ever happened to any investigation or probes into what the government knew beforehand of the Sept. 11 events—that has been conveniently swept out of the spotlight by the Iraq issues.


Further proof of media bias is the peace movement, which has been immensely under-covered by the media. For example, at the anti-war march on Newton held last fall, the three vocal war-supporters on the corner received more press than the hundreds marching for peace. At other marches and rallies, numbers have been grossly underestimated. Clearly, the media are trying their best to portray the anti-war movement as much less than it is in reality.


All news is biased, and the Collegian is no exception. One will usually notice a majority of the writing on the op/ed pages having a pacifist/peace-and-justice/Mennonite slant to it, and I won’t apologize for that. I think it is of utmost importance to utilize whatever individual talents and resources we have to oppose Bush’s proposed war with Iraq and call an end to this madness. Opposing views are always welcome (check out the point/counterpoint article on page 5), but I feel the Collegian has a responsibility to portray those views which are barely given a voice by the mainstream media. I look forward to a day when the headlines are not dominated by talks of war. I think that eliminating America’s weapons of mass destruction and regime change in the U.S. kleptocracy would definitely help bring about peace-filled “top stories.”



Just like his daddy.

If you want to download the song of Ani Difranco's, its a great one I highly recommend it, its called Self Evident. Some lyrics and my favorite parts of the song:


Quote:

and every borough looked up when it heard the first blast
and then every dumb action movie was summarily surpassed
and the exodus uptown by foot and motorcar
looked more like war than anything i've seen so far
so far
so far
so fierce and ingenious
a poetic specter so far gone
that every jackass newscaster was struck dumb and stumbling
over 'oh my god' and 'this is unbelievable' and on and on
and i'll tell you what, while we're at it
you can keep the pentagon
keep the propaganda
keep each and every tv
that's been trying to convince me
to participate
in some prep school punk's plan to perpetuate retribution
perpetuate retribution


Quote:

cuz take away our playstations
and we are a third world nation
under the thumb of some blue blood royal son
who stole the oval office and that phony election
i mean
it don't take a weatherman
to look around and see the weather
jeb said he'd deliver florida, folks
and boy did he ever

and we hold these truths to be self evident:
#1 george w. bush is not president
#2 america is not a true democracy
#3 the media is not fooling me
cuz i am a poem heeding hyper-distillation
i've got no room for a lie so verbose
i'm looking out over my whole human family
and i'm raising my glass in a toast

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay I think I'll have to do a bit of chiming in on this "argument". First off, for all of those foreigners who hate/fear the United States, I would say you are right to. Twice in the past two years The US has completely ignored national sovereignty in order to impose its will on two separate nations. Furthermore, rather than simply changing the country, the US thoroughly destroyed the counties, and then left them in chaos. The War with Iraq was started before we finished what had to be done to rebuild Afghanistan, and now we're realizing that missiles can't build governments.

For those of you who wish to save face for America and blame it directly on Bush, I don't think there is much historical precedent for you. If you remember Clinton had a few bombing rampages of his own at opportune times. Prior to that Reagan in Central America, Johnson in Vietnam (for those lacking the history; the French started this war, the US just very unsuccessfully tried to finish it after the French were forced out), Kennedy in Cuba and the list goes on. On top of all of this, Bush did legitimately win the 2000 election, the rules are in the Constitution if you think they should be changed... start a petition. He is not the first, and probably won't be the last to win the presidency without a plurality of the popular vote.

As for what I think on this whole thing: I think that both of these past two wars have been folly. And I cannot blame Bush either; the majority of the United States is to blame. We as a people have developed a bloodlust and an unjustified overactive sense of moral superiority which in our opinions gives us the right to rule the world. It wasn't Bush alone who invaded, Congress supported his decision, as did about 90% of us. It is appalling, especially now that people who were "Patriotically united under Bush" can come out and blame him for these decisions. To shift gears a bit and tell you why the war wasn't justified, here goes: The UN, despite it past problems is an organization set up to determine when a country is out of line, and imbued with the decision making power to breach the formerly sacred ideal of national sovereignty. The US (and its allies) circumvented this organization in order to invade against much of the world's consent, thus further trivializing the UN. (If you don't remember, it was precisely on these grounds that Iraq was invaded in 1990/1991, it had nothing to do with the WMDs they were using freely during the Iran/Iraq war during which the US supported Iraq.) Now lets set this up in a nice neat logical package.

1. It is wrong to unjustly breach national sovereignty.
2. Only the UN decides whether it is just to breach national sovereignty.
3. The UN did not decide that it was Just to breach Iraq's national sovereignty.
4. If it is just for the United States to breach Iraq's national sovereignty then the UN will decide it is just to breach Iraq's national sovereignty
5. The UN did not decide it was just to breach Iraq's national sovereignty.
6. Therefore, it was not just for the US to breach Iraq's National sovereignty.
7. Therefore, it was wrong to breach Iraq's national sovereignty.


Last edited by Nei on Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats what I have been saying all along.

"Why is the US going against the UN in order to invade a country who was alleged to be breaking UN regulations?"
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because of what Nei said: "We as a people have developed a bloodlust and an unjustified overactive sense of moral superiority which in our opinions gives us the right to rule the world."
America seems to want to become the new UN, one international US. To hell with whoever objects.
Two statements from the past 20 years that scared the hell out of me, one from Bush sr, the next from Bush jr:

When adressing international relationships:"We are all americans"

After Europe was less than enthousiastic about the second iraq war:"If you're not wih us, you're against us".

I'm wondering how long before america invades Holland for their liberal policies...
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PostFri 09/19/03 7:09pm
Falk is a communist! icon_mrgreen.gif  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2003 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even if all that is true ....The US acts in National Intrest one would believe.
So if the attck on Iraq was the result of manufactured excuses my question is not an appropiation of blame.But what was the real reason for the attack onn Iraq??
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2003 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a lot of ideas on this, I started typing them up, but I had a hard time organizing them. In short I think it was a political play both domestically and internationally.

Domestically I think Bush played on the unsatisfied sense of vengeance that was still strong in the American population even after the Afghanistan toppling, as well as the afore mentioned "moral superiority" of the American Humanitarian. The people working for Bush are not idiots, even if he is. Those speeches that he read had a target, and I feel that they hit them hard. He was appealing to those people either through ignorance or devotion feel that Christianity is the one and only correct moral guide to life. He showed these people (who represent a large portion of the US) that he is not afraid of religion, and that he is willing to stand up for Christendom when it "is under attack". If you remember Bush's approval ratings shot over 90% for a period. In my opinion I believe that he was attempting to domestically drum up support not only for the 2004 campaign, but also for a number of legislative initiates he had lined up. The primary motive of most politicians is to be re-elected; voting against a bill spearheaded by a man with 90% of the population behind him is rather dangerous for most Congressmen. I believe Bush and his ideological compatriots do have a domestic "hidden agenda" for the United States, and I think they've gone a ways toward it. I also think that I probably agree with at least the economic side of it, but that doesn't much matter. In short I say the war was, in a way, a large publicity stunt played on a country that most Americans already had hard feelings toward, and few identified with.

Internationally, the United States, I feel was playing a completely different game. Besides acting as a deterrent to minor rogue nations (which I do not feel is the prime international reason for war), I think that the US, seeing its hegemony slipping, was sending a message saying essentially that the US is still going to act as it did during the cold war, and there is nothing that anybody can do about it now. It was an attempt to keep countries from ideologically straying far from the US ideals. Kind of an international power grab or display of sorts.

In conclusion I believe that the majority of people of the US wanted war in further retaliation of 9/11/2001 and they felt a sense of self-satisfaction as they were "doing something good for the world". Congress supported it because either they had initiaves in line with what Bush wanted to pass, or to save their place office after the next election (nobody votes against a popular president ex. see FDR). And Finally I believe Bush did it to further a cause outside of the war as well as an attempt to drum up a wave of support large enough to carry him through the next election.

Those are just my thoughts, if you have anything to add, or a bone to pick with any of them I'd be glad to discuss them as long as this conversation remains civil...
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2003 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i tottally agreee with all that Nei...cept i cant put it in words like you did coz as soon as i try my brain starts heating up and i get reallly pissed off that PEOPLE ARE FuCKING STUPID not to see it.
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