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MOD Integration?

 
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Z
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 4:49 pm    Post subject: MOD Integration? Reply with quote

How far have the mods been integrated? Surely, if both mods get more and more complex then they will be harder and harder to integrate?

I was given a small area to design in a mod and I could see the immense difficulties arising already from just integrating a few areas into a module... duplicate simple scripts, module-wide specifics, quests, history, xp, money, merchants, item restrictions...etc.etc.etc.

Gorb, I see some logic in leaving the integration for the "end". But firstly, when is the "end"? The whole thing about PW is that they are evolving and changing, new areas/quests/items etc. So there won't be a simple "end", things will be added in both modules, leading to necessary integration of these addition into both mods. So others will say.. when the mod goes beta then we will integrate.. Did Dyso ever go beta? When is beta? You can't just say here that "it is done when it is done." Assuming if it is ever even "done" then it'll probably be too late to integrate or the project will have fallen apart. So that just leads back to the question of WHEN will they integrate?

Im not having a go at you Gorb or anyone, but Im just concerned. The way I see it now, is that both modules are getting so complex that the task of integration is getting too difficult. So expanding that theory.. both mods will never integrate... and both mods will start competing for ex-dyso players... there will be friction and the typical flames until one will win... and one will lose and all the time and effort wasted.

Of course, I dont have access to the developer forums... maybe both mods are on the brink of integration... but are they?

Im just asking the devs to kindly pause.... reassess where the overall project is going at the moment? is this dual-server-mod thing going to work? etc.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I say yee should have picked one and built it, then started work on its other half. Nice and simple, and it would give us something to do! cussing.gif Im bored icon_sad.gif Maybe the Hurricane comeing will be exciteing, just 2 more hours. I get out of school... and theres nothing to do. Lucky me.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 6:17 pm    Post subject: Re: MOD Integration? Reply with quote

Z wrote:
How far have the mods been integrated? Surely, if both mods get more and more complex then they will be harder and harder to integrate?
This one is pretty simple. No, they haven't been integrated as of yet. Other than both being housed on the same server.
Z wrote:
I was given a small area to design in a mod and I could see the immense difficulties arising already from just integrating a few areas into a module... duplicate simple scripts, module-wide specifics, quests, history, xp, money, merchants, item restrictions...etc.etc.etc.
This one could be tricky for me to answer, as I'm not scripting guru by any means. I'll give a stab at it though. From what I see, it actually shouldn't be all that difficult for both modules to be able to interact with each other, so long as certain guidelines are maintained. Things like, equipment stats, monster stats, XP rules, GP rules, and such really shouldn't be too difficult to sync up between the two modules. The hardest, by far, part I can invision, is getting the bics, or characters, synced up together when someone else eventually takes over hosting for Tuskan. I've got some ideas floating in my head as to this can be achieved in a secure, simple, and effective method, but these are just that.. ideas. As for the actual mods themselves, and this is my best guess here, all items in Har-Rhun are standard items. There isn't any tweaking going on, that I'm aware of. The same can be said for monsters. All standardized monsters, nothing special about them. That being said, I know nothing in the least bit about Tuskans setup and if/how they have adjusted things. Falk, Fooz, and Griff could much much better answer this than I. Guys?!
Z wrote:
Gorb, I see some logic in leaving the integration for the "end". But firstly, when is the "end"? The whole thing about PW is that they are evolving and changing, new areas/quests/items etc. So there won't be a simple "end", things will be added in both modules, leading to necessary integration of these addition into both mods. So others will say.. when the mod goes beta then we will integrate.. Did Dyso ever go beta? When is beta? You can't just say here that "it is done when it is done."
Patience young grasshopper. icon_smile.gif I don't remember ever saying "end"... I thought I worded it as "once the mods become a little more full and stable." If not, that's probably how I should have said it. As for Dyso being beta, so far as I know, that's all it ever was. What the creators definition of "beta" was is beyond me though. As you somewhat said, things like this are never finished, and therefore, are never truely complete. I would say, once the major areas are completed, the mod should no longer be considered "beta." I'm not saying every city, house, village, minor quests, or things like that. I'm saying major major areas, such as Eleriina, Kravenwood, Cape of Storms, Winyatris types of areas. Things that play keyroles into the storyline of the mod and world. If that makes sense.
Z wrote:
Assuming if it is ever even "done" then it'll probably be too late to integrate or the project will have fallen apart. So that just leads back to the question of WHEN will they integrate?
Kinda answered above, and short answer... I don't think anyone really knows for sure when it'll be 100% integrated. Zedium and I, today, where just talking about vaults being combined, and that is one heck of a jump. icon_wink.gif
Z wrote:
Im not having a go at you Gorb or anyone, but Im just concerned. The way I see it now, is that both modules are getting so complex that the task of integration is getting too difficult. So expanding that theory.. both mods will never integrate... and both mods will start competing for ex-dyso players... there will be friction and the typical flames until one will win... and one will lose and all the time and effort wasted.
Heh, good thing about not having a go with me and the rest. We're a bunch of pricks. icon_lol.gif But seriously, there is more and more communication going on between the two mods. Falkhor is currently in the states, visiting Fooz and company, and from what I hear, they have been working towards more and more goodies for Tuskan. I also know that Fooz took a hard drive poop, which kinda delayed things a bit, but prior, Fooz was working on what I would call, an integration kit, for both modules with things like, and I'm quoting Fooz on this, "rudimentary DB+persistence, "comporomise death", rest, bleeding, and possibly XP systems; and much of Griff's completed work for Har Ruhn (which makes sense being in the core scripts)."
Z wrote:
Of course, I dont have access to the developer forums... maybe both mods are on the brink of integration... but are they?
Hard saying... best answer I can really give.
Z wrote:
Im just asking the devs to kindly pause.... reassess where the overall project is going at the moment? is this dual-server-mod thing going to work? etc.
At this point, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't, unless we hit a snag with the shared vaults. icon_confused.gif

Also, I moved this from Chatter into State of the World. Any of the developers have any comments or corrections, please feel free to correct me. Sometimes I simply don't have a clue. icon_lol.gif
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Z
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Gorb for the fast reply and info, appreciate it as Im sure others do.

GorbGuy wrote:

Any of the developers have any comments or corrections{???}

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Kindo
PostThu 09/18/03 9:17pm
I don't think Dyso ever hit Beta... I remember it to be Alpha all the time. Not sure how it is now though.  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure I understand the use of the word integration.
In this instance does it mean two mods using the same vault ?

I've seen this in action, if that's what is meant in this case.
Aventia, for example, runs two module servers and a 3rd for the vault only.

Perhaps the owner, Jason De Cordoba, could give you guys some minor assistance on this.

Just a suggestion.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Atharva Veda wrote:
I'm not sure I understand the use of the word integration.
In this instance does it mean two mods using the same vault ?

I've seen this in action, if that's what is meant in this case.
Aventia, for example, runs two module servers and a 3rd for the vault only.

Perhaps the owner, Jason De Cordoba, could give you guys some minor assistance on this.

Just a suggestion.
Nope, not exactly what we mean. We too have run multiple servers without failure, however, each server (3 of them plus a vault and DB server) were all running the same mod or variations of the same mod. No real issues with doing this, simply share the vault (via NFS or SMB) and module and you're off running. What we're looking at doing is running two modules, each completely different and independant of one another, and sharing not only the vault, but the persistance, and a set of guidelines. This will bring together a sort of "world" where someone could play their entire time on Tuskan, or Har-Rhun, and not interact with the other module... or they could start out on Har-Rhun and move to Tuskan whenever they feel they need a change of pace, and vice-versa. Kinda unique in that both modules are self sufficiant, but still integrated pretty closely. The only other place like this that I know of is Avlis, and as far as I know, they haven't succeded entirely with it. This of course, was a month or so ago. But I know they were having issues sharing the vault to many systems across the internet in an efficiant manner (meaning, secure, fast, and stable.)
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the primary issue with this as it comes together is just how much integration there is.

I did a little reading over some old posts and such, and looked again at your post, Gorb, and I have to say at this point that there seems to be two different ideas out there on just what that integration is or should be.

There seems to be one side that would like to see pretty much all scripts, items, concepts and so forth following the same parameters. There is also the other camp which would like to see the stuff "parallel in spirit" but not necessarily have to be the same right down to the nuts and bolts.

Folks have talked about friction in the whole thing before ... and this is where the friction is coming from.
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Marquis Drayfox
PostFri 09/19/03 4:47am
And friction you will have. Regardless as to how easy the concept is, this is going to be one big thorn in the ass.....  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surely integration if and when it happens has to be complete? there can't be a halfway house as surely that will lead to numerous problems with the details such as specific items and scripts between the two mods.

foxboy is right whatever happens...
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Z wrote:
Surely integration if and when it happens has to be complete? there can't be a halfway house as surely that will lead to numerous problems with the details such as specific items and scripts between the two mods.

foxboy is right whatever happens...
Actually, you can have a halfway house. icon_wink.gif Neither mod has to be an exact duplicate of the other for this to work. Lemme say again neither mod has to be an exact duplicate for this to work. If this was the case, we'd be right back to where Dyso was once upon a time. Two identical mods running on two servers. This is not what we are doing. Look at it like this. You have this uberfied Sony car stereo you want to rip out of your Chevy and put into a Ford. Woah! Are you mad!!! Take something from one thing and put it into another! Christ, you must be smoking dope... wrong. Each car out there is built around a specific set of standards, regardless of what's "under the hood." Sure, you might need a fancy faceplate adapter because [gorbguy rant]Ford decided to put some gay ass looking faceplate on their new Taurus's and wrap the stereo and the rest of the console in it [/gorbguy rant], but the fact remains, behind the pretty shell, certain things are made to a certain standard. Critical things. Not silly things like resting or even death. Honestly, who gives a rats ass if what happens to you when you die in Har-Rhun isn't right to the letter of what happens in Tuskan. Resting limits, again, is this an issue? Now, persistance and the what's, where's, and when's of that system have to be pretty damned close. If not right to the T. Items, they have to be similar. Har-Rhun, if anyone has noticed, is pretty much haste free, item wise. We like it that way. Now in Tuskan, I dunno if they have Boots of Speed... never really looked I guess. But assuming there were, we'd have to come to some sort of compromise to make both sides somewhat happy. And yes, sometimes this will be a royal PITA.
My point is, integration is not duplication. Integration, by definition, is to form, coordinate, or blend into a functioning or unified whole. In simple terms, unite. That's it.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to chip in, I don't think you can let integration take away form either module. Theres an example, I play a druid on Har-Rhun but the druids grove is in tuskan, however what if I don't want to go to tuskan? Say I don't like it or whatever, then I'm stuck. I think any situation like that would be wrong.

*don't worry there are druid grove plans for Har-Rhun*
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2003 1:40 am    Post subject: ponders Reply with quote

well...I had to ponder posting this...but then again...its my nature to make obvious and stoopid statements...so here goes.....

First of all..if you had worked together from the start you wouldnt need to integrate it

Secong your suggesting that I could take a bus from Chicago to Los Angelos and the Physics of the universe would change during my trip.... cant you just copy and paste the sleep effects and such...and agree on haste items.....


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2003 3:25 am    Post subject: Re: ponders Reply with quote

Zantia-1 wrote:
well...I had to ponder posting this...but then again...its my nature to make obvious and stoopid statements...so here goes.....

First of all..if you had worked together from the start you wouldnt need to integrate it
Tuskan had about a year's head start on Har-Rhun, so doing this wasn't possible.

Zantia-1 wrote:
Secong your suggesting that I could take a bus from Chicago to Los Angelos and the Physics of the universe would change during my trip.... cant you just copy and paste the sleep effects and such...and agree on haste items.....
No and yes. It all depends on who/how/where/when things were scripted. But again, sleep effects, I would think, is one of those "BFD if they aren't the same" things. icon_wink.gif
:Edit: Forgot to chip in on the physics question. Yes, the laws of physics are changing every day. If they remained constant, there would be no reason to still study it in school. I do believe, unless this has changed since I was in school, that physics was all based on theory. icon_smile.gif
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2003 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

huh? the actual physics never changes, its our theories about them that do. Theories after they have been discarded/changed etc. basically become fact (ok you can say "oh no, we can never be sure of everything..."..well, were only 99.9999% sure of most of it then...)

Anyway, personally, it would be weird if there were different death scenarios, economy system, sleep effects in the mods and might people say hmm, if im going to lose 10xp here and 15xp there then... no matter what rhetoric youre going to throw at me there will be an element of that anywhere. Similar situations can be applied to the differing systems and basically theres going to be a world of shit.

In my view, I think it was a bad decision to go on ahead with two seperate mods and then combine them later. (And yes I did make a post at the time but someone deleted it). However, firstly, im not a dev so arguably I have no basis or right to say that and secondly, were not going to get very far analysing past mistakes. I think that both mods need to start integrating now, not in a month, not "just after I finish this area...", now.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2003 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Z wrote:
huh? the actual physics never changes, its our theories about them that do. Theories after they have been discarded/changed etc. basically become fact (ok you can say "oh no, we can never be sure of everything..."..well, were only 99.9999% sure of most of it then...)
Heh, I'm glad someone here has a degree in physics. icon_rolleyes.gif

Z wrote:
Anyway, personally, it would be weird if there were different death scenarios, economy system, sleep effects in the mods and might people say hmm, if im going to lose 10xp here and 15xp there then... no matter what rhetoric youre going to throw at me there will be an element of that anywhere. Similar situations can be applied to the differing systems and basically theres going to be a world of shit.
So, you find it weird that the US and Europeans have different economic, religious, timezone, and social systems. Heh, and here I was thinking that differences in cultures was an interesting thing. Anyways, simply put, if you don't like the way the world is being handled and thinking that it's going to result in a world of "shit" than I invite you lash out at it's admins in the way that Jon316 (aka, CattieBrie) did. icon_cool.gif

Z wrote:
In my view, I think it was a bad decision to go on ahead with two seperate mods and then combine them later. (And yes I did make a post at the time but someone deleted it). However, firstly, im not a dev so arguably I have no basis or right to say that and secondly, were not going to get very far analysing past mistakes. I think that both mods need to start integrating now, not in a month, not "just after I finish this area...", now.
Heh, good thing no one really asked for your view on combining an existing mod and a new mod, I suppose. icon_wink.gif And as I've said in another post, Tuskan had a year or so head start on Har-Rhun. So basically what you are proposing, in your apparent godly sense in the matter, is that we should have basically stolen the scripting that was in place in Tuskan, taken some pretty maps, and poof, instant Har-Rhun. Again, I state, good thing no one really asked for your view on combining the mods.

Now then, is there really any further reason to continue on with this thread? In the good spirit of me being "evil asshole serverhost" I think we'll just lock this down. Because, as you with so much knowledge has already stated, "we're not going to get very far analysing past mistakes."
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