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Rogue / Monk the new bread of lame...
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 9:06 am    Post subject: Rogue / Monk the new bread of lame... Reply with quote

Yes Rogues Monk rules ... you get disarm so if some one is not happy about you pp him you just disarm him... I think it really is an amaising combo.. take a few level a fighter or clerc as well you get tons of attack and spell..
this is real great, I would also suggest you to go play on local vault arena..
you will really enjoy it there. you'll get amaising item etc.. and guess what you wont even have to role play ... sounds great
one last thing... monk are not supose to act like Chotic theft.. the sole reason why monk have amaising extra feature, is because they have this pain in the neck Lawfull allingment.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Err I just gave my rogue the disarm feat..
No need to go part monk(ey) for that.
And trust me, it does piss people off when you disarm them icon_smile.gif
Usually I give the weaps back though.
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PostFri 01/03/03 11:14am
I have nothing against rogue or fighter getting disarm...
just gainst monk/rogue
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogue monks are indeed amazing, Falkhor is a rogue monk as some know. The lawfull attitude of the general monk gets a different meaning however when combined with the rogue class. As I see it a Shadow monk (as they are called in the LOS) is a rogue whose basic principles include a sense of honor in its actions and a clear philosophy on the circulation of energy and the material representative of the cosmic current: money.
A rogue/monk obviously is not a lawfull person in the sense that he follows the laws of the land, instead he follows a set of principles and is utterly loyal to his own organisation. Rogue/monks are generally speaking Lawfull Evil/neutral and can be considered excellent spies and assassins.
The fact that they can disarm is nothing any other class couldn't do, it's just that they are slightly better at it. I don't see why a rogue/monk is any less of a roleplayer than a Barbarian with disarm only beause they can do it barehanded more easily than others. Look at pretty much every ninja movie and you seen them disarming opponents before ripping into them with their fists. I see no difference with a rogue stealing a sword from your backpack or a rogue/monk disarming the weapon you wield.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was expecting this kind of awnser... poor excuse imo

well it all depend of course what lies within Lawfull... if for you Lawfull means "obey to rules" full stop then you are right.
BUT then you could play what ever you like: be law full to an chotic evil organisation "et voila" my lawfull can play CE..
what about the best one : LN one day he is lawfull to law enforcement the next to LoS in other to keep the balance...
Lawfull rogue is a really interesting concept... hard to roleplay right i think

as for spies assassins, i'll say CN is the natural way to go. imo


"The lawfull attitude of the general monk gets a different meaning however when combined with the rogue class"

You really mean: the lawfull attitude get a different meaning when i pleases me...
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spies and assassins take on an assignment from someone else and they generally won't back down from finishing their job on account of having a sense of dishonor if they opt to do so. That is definitely not my description of a CN character. A CN would take the assignment maybe but after that he's just as likely to say:"erm why the hell would I finish off the assignment, i wanna pluck daisies instead"
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just because you don't agree doesn't mean you're right and please don't tell me what I mean. Unless you have strongly developed telepathic abilities I think I know best what I mean.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And on the subject of joining one organisation one day and another the next has nothing to do with LN in my opinion. In fact you're exactly describing a CN. One day this, the other that. A lawfull character would stick to one leader, one organisation, one client. Swaying from that would mean dishonor.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

icon_lol.gif

beeing a men who keep his word, has little to do with lawfullness. rather
With loyalty, evilness or goodness.

an CE will likely trie to be a bitch and eventualy turn against the one paying him.. to get more .. or just for fun

so basicly good or evil determine if you are going to be an jackass with others or if you are going to be a goodygoody. Chaotic and Lawfull determine haw you are going to be the above:exemple robin wood CG...

A CN after an assignment wont say:"erm why the hell would I finish off the assignment, i wanna pluck daisies instead"
BUT a CE would likely.



remember chaos not equal to evil with ppl
lawfull not equal to good with ppl

a LE is i dont know may be some one like Red hammer. or may be he is a really CE tring to make us think he is LE or LN.. that much cleverness from an 1/2 orc is really surprising icon_wink.gif but i aint gonna complain that some clever player have difficulty playing stupid orc.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Falkhor wrote:
And on the subject of joining one organisation one day and another the next has nothing to do with LN in my opinion. In fact you're exactly describing a CN. One day this, the other that. A lawfull character would stick to one leader, one organisation, one client. Swaying from that would mean dishonor.




I really like your idea on LN working in a destruction and killing organisation... would stick to one leader, one organisation, one client. Swaying from that would mean dishonor.

LOYALTY (not =) LAWFULL


anyway what do i care... play your LN, CE if you like...
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Loyalty is exactly what I describe as one of the principles of lawfullness. A chaotic character regardless of good or evil will turn his back on people the second he finds something more worthwhile in his personal opinion. A lawfull character regardless of good or evil will stay loyal to whomever he has pledged loyalty to, whether it is the lawabiding citizen or the ninja pledged to serve his underground organisation. AS for the jackass thing yea that does depend on good or evil. A lawfull good character won't slice someone's throat because it is objectionable to his moral standards regarding killing others, an evil character has no compulsion to stop his hand on account of morals regarding killing others. All that matters to him is his keeping his honor intact with little regard to who needs to suffer in the process. A Lawfull evil character, when compared to neutral evil or chaotic evil, views his honor as something that lifts him above the average thug.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree to your following statement

A lawfull good character won't slice someone's throat because it is objectionable to his moral standards regarding killing others.

i there for add

A chaotic character will slice someone's throat because it might no be objectionable to his moral standards regarding killing others.

therefor Lawfull assassin i dont think so..


I disagree to the following

A chaotic character regardless of good or evil will turn his back on people the second he finds something more worthwhile in his personal opinion

I think that

A chaotic character EVIL WILL turn his back on people the second he finds something more worthwhile in his personal opinion

A chaotic character NEUTRAL MIGHT turn his back on people the second he finds something more worthwhile in his personal opinion

A chaotic character Good Will NOT turn his back on people the second he finds something more worthwhile in his personal opinion


icon_rolleyes.gif although it is important that most of us play more or lees in a same way, in order to be less missundersatnding.. i have the feeling we aint goint any where there.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A chaotic character will slice someone's throat because it might no be objectionable to his moral standards regarding killing others.


Being Chaotic has nothing to do with morals regarding the suffering of others. it is all about the freedom of choice. It has absolutely nothing to do with being good or evil. Why do you think Alignment consists of two parts? In your view of things it seems you would think a chaotic good character has no problem with slicing someone's throat. They DO have problem with it in my opinion. What a chaotic has no problem with is bypassing rules, laws and loyalty. That's chaotic.
Slicing someone's throat has to do with the second part of the Alignment curve, being good or evil.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

glad we came to an understanding


A chaotic character will slice someone's throat
because it might not be objectionable to his moral standards regarding killing others.
that is as you said freedom of choice.

"In your view of things it seems you would think a chaotic good character has no problem with slicing someone's throat"

In my view an CG character will fight the evil regardless of law.
He will PP a evil rogue to give the $ back to the poor or looted.
if his wife is rape or attacked by evils he wont go to the police and will try to do justice him self.
but what he wont do, is kill neutral or good char
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read better: what i said was that an evil character has no trouble slicing open someone's throat for their own benefit, a neutral has no particular objections to slicing someone's throat if the NEED to do so arises. A good person has a serious problem slicing open someone's throat regardless of the reasons. He'll do so in selfdefence only and will avoid doing so if he can afford to because he has moral objections to doing so. Even when doing so in selfdefence or to protect good people from evil he will still be haunted by doubts whether he could have done something less lethal.
Slicing someone's throat without moral objections has NOTHING to do with being chaotic or lawfull. It has nothing to do with freedom of choice.
Being Lawfull is about following a set of guidelines whether it be the law in general or the rules of your organisation. Being Chaotic allows someone to say to hell with all of you and move on without regret over lost allegiances. But a good person would still regret killing, for whatever reason whether he's chaotic or lawfull.
Chaotic has nothing to do with the ease one uses a blade on someone else's throat. It has everything to do with the ease one shakes off past loyalties.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well i disagre :p
Good cant be killer ie he wont go kill someone for "fun"
but a Good can be a soldier fight and kill EVIL, without remorse.
(that does not remove you the right to play a pc with extrememe remorse) But this is imo real extreme..


"Chaotic has nothing to do with the ease one uses a blade on someone else's throat"

well If killing is not allowed by law Chaotic wont mind trespassing the law. Lawfull on the othe hand will mind.

haw can a LE can be evil then if he obey by the Law ?

well he ca use hie knowledge of the law to set up some one, he can make some disinformation ... he can lie and lie and lie and lie again, did i hear corupted politician ? etc...
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well sure, goods can hunt evil, but only if they actually do evil, and then they will still try to solve the whole affair in peace, and if nothing else helps they will start bashing people on the head.

a person hunting evil and killing them without remorse (or even torturing them first) is more lawfull evil than good, sure, he kills evil, but the way he does it is wrong, stealing what actually belongs to an evil person is still damn evil.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 5:46 pm    Post subject: Alignments Reply with quote

Y I think your a little off on the alignment structure (as written by Wizards).

Lawful can be someone who follows the Law or any Code (even one they made up) as long as they stick to it regardless of feelings. A chaotic character is ruled more by emotion. How they feel about that action determines the Good/Evil scale of this.

Example - a Samuri who is ordered to kill a child completes the action without a second thought. This is Lawful by their code if the order was from his Domo (I think Domo is superior). How he feels about it afterwards:
Remorse - Lawful Good
Unsure, justifies it based on code - Lawful Nuetral
Could care less - Lawful Evil.

So there could be a rogue/monk combo that remained lawful. As long as the actions taken follow a strict code of conduct. I don't know that I could justify Pick pocket as ok, but using disarm in a combat most definately would apply. Any enemy who loses his weapon is more easilly defeated.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wont go over my argument over again.

I only find really intersting that you wannt Lawfull to be a way to act according to a code that you could even made up... rather than the official law.


so you have chaotic who can do what they please because they dont think they have to obey to the law.

And you have Lawfull who can also do what they please because they can obey to a law that they could make up.

linving by rules that you made rather than official rules... but that's chaotic innit ..

I think you all are having double standard here with the Law ...
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright, i have had it with this discussion, this is directly copied from the ADnD 2e player's handbook:

Quote:
Characters who believe in law maintain that order, organization, and society are important, indeed vital, forces of the universe. The relationships between people and governments exist naturally. Lawful philosophers maintain that this order is not created by man but is a natural law of the universe. Although man does not create orderly structures, it is his obligation to function within them, lest the fabric of everything crumble. For less philosophical types, lawfulness manifests itself in the belief that laws should be made and followed, if only to have understandable rules for society. People should not pursue personal vendettas, for example, but should present their claims to the proper authorities. Strength comes through unity of action, as can be seen in guilds, empires, and powerful churches


Quote:
Lawful Evil: These characters believe in using society and its laws to benefit themselves. Structure and organization elevate those who deserve to rule as well as provide a clearly defined hierarchy between master and servant. To this end, lawful evil characters support laws and societies that protect their own concerns. If someone is hurt or suffers because of a law that benefits lawful evil characters, too bad. Lawful evil characters obey laws out of fear of punishment. Because they may be forced to honor an unfavorable contract or oath they have made, lawful evil characters are usually very careful about giving their word. Once given, they break their word only if they can find a way to do it legally, within the laws of the society. An iron-fisted tyrant and a devious, greedy merchant are examples of lawful evil beings.


Now, it says clearly that lawful=someone who follows the law, and in the case of evil, he follows the law because he is afraid to get punished. And I do think that that means that a lawful character canNOT be an assassin, UNLESS there are no penalties upon assassinating, or if he was ABSOLUTELY sure that he would not get caught/punished. It is plain and simple people, monk/rogue is quite illegal, unless the monk has forsaken his previous beliefs(meaning that he will not use certain abilities, such as wholeness of body or something like that), and I even think that in the ADnD rules, a rogue could NOT be chaotic, ofcourse, most of those restrictions have been removed in DnD.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCore wrote:
Alright, i have had it with this discussion, this is directly copied from the ADnD 2e player's handbook:

Quote:
Characters who believe in law maintain that order, organization, and society are important, indeed vital, forces of the universe.


Now, it says clearly that lawful=someone who follows the law


Actually, I kind of have to disagree with you on this, Shadow. It looks to me like lawful=someone who believes in order, organization, and society. This doesn't mean "The Law", it means more "a set of laws". These could be the rules (laws) set down by a group of, say, rouges. This is part of the generally accepted definition of "Lawful" in the AD&D universe.
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PostFri 01/03/03 8:56pm
Yes, but thats what i mean by the law, but still, a lwaful assassin would be impossible unless, well, see above.  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't tell me how to play a chaotic character I do as I want and follow my own damn rules, forget you sucker!!! take your rules and shove em!! -jailed for holding weapon in eleriina-

Son of a ... BITCH.


That's chaotic, you follow your own damn rules and do whatever you feel like doing at the moment instead of long term rules and planning crap, be a free spirit be an assassin be a gardener be a porn star no one gives a flying... *ahem* fubar anyways, its all good bruthah

with the coming changes soon then you will have to stay ic for an alignment or become a new alignment as it will evolve with your decisions!!! icon_biggrin.gif

w00t i love automatic alignments, someone kills 5 points towards evil!!! omg,s...

no wait thats krynn, screw it.

whatever if i wanna play a damn lawful evil monk thats an assassin i will FREAKING DO IT IF I WANT BECAUSE IT SAYS SO

"A EVIL MONK MAKES GOOD SPIES OR ASSASSINS" fight that you idiot.

right in the description .

no argueing.

PERIOD.

take that and shove it where the sun dont shine.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Example:
Falkhor is a Shadow monk. he spend a short time of his life in a Shadow monestery in Tuskan learning about the Cosmic Current. Shadowmonks hold the idea that the money flow is the closest material thing resembling the cosmic exchange of energy. Therefore getting richer is synonimous with an increase in spiritual power. Now because he is Evil he sees no problem with robbing others of energy (money) in order to strengthen his own. in fact he is quite convinved that it stimulates growth in those worthy and destroys those not worthy of having the energy in the first place. Falkhor believes certain people are destined to rule, others destined to serve, if need be give up their lifes in order to lift the few above the many. He truly believes that this strengthens the universe as a whole. Much like a single waterfall is much more powerfull than a lot of small streams so should some have all and most have nothing. Falkhor was introduced to the teachings of the League of Shadows, an organisation which entails far more than just being a rogue's guild. He applied the Shadow monk teachings to his new career as a rogue. The things he learned instilled in him an absolute loyalty to the League. In fact so much so he would destroy anyone getting close to discovering its secrets. It is a sense of responsibility that drives Falkhor into fanaticism in such a way that it can be construed as evil, even if he considers himself really a moral and just person forces into actions not of his own choosing. He doesn't sway from his own code of honor. Doing so would dishonor him, turning his back on the League would mean dishonor, telling its secrets would mean dishonor, killing for no apparent reason would mean dishonor. Falkhor lives by his code because he believes it makes him better than the common thug (which doesn't mean he's right about his assumptions regarding himself). He will justify his actions on the basis of his believes and guidelines. He can pat himself on the back saying:"I'm not evil, I'm doing this cause I have a right to do so, in fact an obligation to do so. I'm benefitting society by subjugating the unworthy, by exploiting the weak in order for the strong to grow stronger, by ensuring wealth is not distributed equally or fairly but among those who have the strength and cunning to grab power and wealth for themselves". Falkhor feels he is part of society, is a strong proponent of a structured society but he also feels a society that is based on equality for all is basically flawed, pointing to a wolf pack as example where there is always a alpha male. A wolf pack is highly structured with a clear line of command and yet the leader will not hesistate to kill any male wolf threatening its position.

Frankly I don't see how that makes Falkhor anything BUT Lawfull Evil.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2003 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that's perfect for like, in those kind of movies this twisted bastard that believes that killing people (or little children) that he thinks are evil would think himself lawful good when actully he is lawful evil or chaotic evil murdering little babies and children!!!

its all in how you veiw yourself personally wheather you be a demented homophobic wierdo or a chaotic evil paladin its up to the character to see themselves as what they really are, which is the base of RP... role playing your char out to what he would do in real.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think shadow core made my point with the ADnD 2e player's handbook
so did Jon316


If we are in a World like dyso topia where good and evil value are not inversed.
and if those believes and guidelines he obeys are the "official" good one
then he will be Lawfull Good
if those believes and guidelines are opposed to the "offical" one he will have to be chotic neutral or chotic evil may be neutrel evil depending on haw evil he is.
the thing is that even if your pc dont think what he is doing is bad or against the law those actions could still be considered by the official as bad or against the law.


i feel that Shadow monk is more like Evil Neutral maybe, but depending on haw he enjoy thing.. like if he really like the $ or the killing he could be CE.
.
EN if he put the honor above self profit
CE if he enjoy killing of doing bad action (personal enjoyment)

let me know haw you feel...

.... allignment are imo not easy to play, I have great difficulty my self playing them:
Y is CN but she is lead more and more to CG since evil piss her off.. none the less she still have "evil" freind. therefor the dilema: if the freinds of my freinds are my enemy... are they still my freind ?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2003 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
EN if he put the honor above self profit


A neutral evil character doesn't give a rat's ass about honor

Quote:
CE if he enjoy killing of doing bad action (personal enjoyment)


The enjoyment of killing has nothing to do with being chaotic.

I keep running into the same thing with you. Being Lawfull or chaotic has zilch, nada, nothing to do with the enjoyment of killing or remorse over hurting others. Nothing!
Alignment as I've mentioned before is not divided into two parts for no reason.

The first part of Alignment has to do with loyalty vs disloyalty, following strict guidelines of behaviour vs random behaviour, honorable behaviour vs dishonorable behaviour, following rules vs disobeying rules.
And once more, as I've mentioned before, those rules and guidelines are not bound to the official law of the land...
What if a lawfull good character walks into a lawfull evil country? Is he supposed to follow the law or will he follow his own set of guidelines?
If a lawfull evil character walks into a lawfull good town, does that mean he immediately turns into a Lawfull Good just because the law of that land says you're supposed to? Laws aren't cosmic constants, they are made up by people and one country has a different opinion about it than others, one organisation has different rules than the other.

The second part of alignment has to do with good vs evil, compassion vs mercilessness, talking things out instead of stabbing someone for disagreeing, helping out others instead of trampling over them, aiding a beggar instead of spitting in its face, donating to a good cause instead of robbing the collector.
The fact that your CN hates evil makes her more good indeed. It has nothing to do with having evil friends. Hating evil would make you take a stand against them, trying to convince them to mend their ways and in the end should they still continue a good character would turn their back on them cause he/she couldn't stand the evil they perform. now if you are more ambivalent to their activities that would make you CN, while you may consider their actions extreme you do not judge them because you know you'd do it too if the need arose. You wouldn't give a damn if they burglarized a home but if you're good, you would have a serious problem with them robbing the poor blind or slicing someone's throat in the process.

One part of alignment deals with following rules and guidelines vs eratic behaviour, the second part deals with humanistic morality vs mercilessness. It's not really that hard to understand is it?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2003 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go Falkhor.. I must totally agree with you on that one.

Now, as for a dualist approach, how about this:
Without evil there would be no good (without black there would be no white, etc. etc.). If you can grasp this concept, please follow me to the next thing:

What if someone commits a load of crimes, and justifies it to himself because he is convinced that in the end it will make people appreciate all the good things even more. What kind of person would that be? (Besides sick & twisted icon_wink.gif I'm talking about in AD&D aligns).
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2003 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He would be a chaotic neutral person, since he is totally crazy. He does stuff that are totally evil, he knows it, but he says "I'm doing it for good". Which makes him someone who is not evil, since he doesn't do it for evil reasons, but not good either, because the things he does are evil. He would not be lawful, since even for him it would be against his own lies, and he would have to be chaotic, because he makes up his own rules, goes against every single law, and isn't maintaining balance.
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ShadowCore
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2003 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, as I have said before, according to the official ADnD rules, a lawful assassin canNOT be done, except when he knows he has cooperation from the law, meaning that the shadow monks could be there, because they are condoned by the eleriina government(well, the guild is, so they are too, right?). But, I would say that i do agree with Falkhor too, on this one(well,at least his last post. too lazy to read the other posts made by him)
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