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OOC: Resignation - or My shattered hopes and dreams

 
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Malakalam
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 2:55 am    Post subject: OOC: Resignation - or My shattered hopes and dreams Reply with quote

Most likely I am going to simply drop the Malakalam character, and stop playing him. There are several reasons, but the main reason why is Marine. Marine has managed to completely and utterly destroy any hopes I had for this guild with his blundering. I have no idea how much of it was him and how much of it was his character Nel, but I don't really care anymore. I'll explain a bit more about why I blaim Marine in a moment, first -

Dysotopia is completly lawless. The White Guard, the Mayor, and the OSB are almost NEVER seen, and when they are, they do nothing. Cyric's followers rampage across the lands, killing, looting, and conning people, and there's jack shit you can do about it. If you kill them, its meaningless. They're all at level 20, so its not like they care they lost XP. Personally, I'm sick of it. The only time I ever see a mod is when they're banning people over shouting, and even that is extremely rare.

As I've said in my other posts, its impossible to take advatange of laws that are not enforced. My Lawful Evil character, Malakalam, is simply not feasible, and I do not enjoy playing him.

When this guild was founded, my first thought was "thank god, there's a lawful guild that actually plans on doing things that I can take advantage of" I planned to bring tyranny to the land via the guild, by building upon the people's trust until we gained the power to send people to jail, then abusing the hell out of it. After a short time however, I realized that lawbreaking was SO rampent that ANY enforcement of the laws would be along the lines of tyranny by comparasion, so my character shifted towards lawful neutral.

As for the reason that I blaim Nel for the death of my character -
Nel/Marine did three things that contributed to this -
First, my plan on sending the guild down the tyranny route was ruined by her recruitment of many characters with extreme good viewpoints, and her own chaotic good viewpoint. This was not really Marine's fault, as thats what Nel would do.

Second - Nel shot down the guild, completly destroying its chance at becoming a powerful organization before the wipe. Nel told people that we'd have mod tools, and turned both Uin and Conrad against us. The chances of us ever becoming a powerful law organization forever died when that screenshot was taken. Personally, I blame Marine for this one. He took OOC information, told other people it, and ^%#$ed everything up.

Third - The one reason I was allowed to roleplay out, and tried, and failed - Nel ruined the guild by simply being in it. There is no way we could ever be taken seriously with her in the guild. Nel has never, ever, given a SHIT about the law. She even told me OOC that she hired an assassin to kill me. Having Nel in the guild made it extremely hard for me to recruit anyone, as I was basicly limited to LN alignment people, as anyone who was LE had probably already been killed once or twice by her or her family.

Unless someone's got a real good reason, I see no point in playing Malakalam, as I said before, he isn't feasible.

edit: I do not hate Marine for this. Marine really only made one real mistake, and the rest was simply playing his character.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OOC: Yeah Nel has made it hard, and I attribute that to Nel, not Marine. Nei is trying to correct that IC but she has to tread a very fine line and it'll take her a while if she is at all successful. As you may or may not have noticed, Nel isn't runnig around starting fights and such as much anymore.

But hell, like you said it is almost impossible to gain power because even if we were to begin to grow, the rest of Dyso would revolt agianst us again likely lead by Ogt or Sirron again. Although I think you may be mistaken about Conrad and Uin. Although they were both peved about the jailing thing, I think they're both neutral if not on our side. Uin sat in on one of our hearings and even gave opinions. Honestly I think you should stay in it if not for this version of dyso, then for post wipe Dyso where law will be more common. Trust me, I've had my fair share of frusterations too, being part of the reason I don't play Nei as much anymore. But it is still a good idea, at least we're about the only organization trying. I'd say the only good reason for leaving would be if you think that you plan is no longer feasible IC.
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Malakalam
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ogt wouldn't have been a problem, he and I had backroom arrangements, although I may not have made it clear enough to him. Sirron or Glorin on the other hand could have been a problem.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll give this topic.. oh.. two days.. then if I fail to see a reason to continue playing the character, I'll post all the back story and what happened behind the scenes that you guys don't know about, including the relationship between Cutters, Malakalam, Yolanda, and Niap Xam.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you guys would like, I'll make a new character for the guild, I've been looking at an extremely cheap 1/1/18 monk/paladin/cleric for pvp combat, he'd make a good enforcer
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, Im sorry I havent been around these last couple of days, but I got sick (and still am a bit). Basically, I had to stay in bed these last two days... icon_neutral.gif

Now for this issue...
I must agree with your points... Nel (and not marine) has probably delayed (but not destroyed) our chances to become a truly respected and powerfull organization.
Her first actions when this Council went live got many people against us, and there were times when I thought that inviting her to join us hadn't been such a good idea.

Anyway, it did improve RP a lot, and Nel puts her heart and soul in everything she does... which is good... the only thing we needed to do was shift her alignment from chaotic to neutral or even lawfull.
I think we managed to "beggin" that... you must admit that Nel has changed a lot in the passed times...

I told all of you, from the start, that this was going to be VERY HARD... I myself had the idea of this Council for many months, and only decided to create it now because I had serious doubts if it was going to be worth it...

I admit... I got a bit frustrated in the beggining... I even considered killing my character and throw this whole guild thing to the air... but I managed to control myself... mainly for 3 reasons:
1) I never give up on things that I have started...
2) Lately, the council has been able to do something... we actually got 2 cases solved, and with that, we got on the good side of Uin, Conrad and all the other influent folk around.
3) Rebirth...
I believe that in rebirth things will change A LOT... and Gesh has a plan to maintain law that fits EXACTLY our cause. Hell... I even think that WE gave him the idea...
He wants a guild to be responsible for enforcing the law and making the trials... that's EXACTLY what we are doing/trying to do.

You see... I actually believe that things will get better for us... much better...

So now I ask you Malak and EVERYONE else in this Council... stick toghether... stay with us... good things never come easily, and its normal to get frustrated... we just need to learn to overcome those frustrations...

Oh, and Malak, I understand if you want to start another character... I myself have been thinking about that... I miss my old Local Vault cleric and Im thinking of replacing Isendur with him too.

So if you think you will be more confortable with another char, go ahead... kill Malak Kalam and we'll recruit your new character... but please... stay with us...
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ooc for the record malakam isnt the perfect fir for this concile ethier !

remember when you killed poor named alone, weak, at level 5 icon_smile.gif
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Marine436
PostThu 02/27/03 2:26pm
anouther thing

who the hell cares if it succeeds OOC ? it's good RP ethier way.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree, Marine...
Even OOC, I wish that everything where i am envolved to succeed...

I dont want the HC to be a failure... it wouldnt make sense...
As I said, I believe we will succeed... we will be able to enforce the law in Dysotopia. And that my friend, is what gives me strength to move on icon_smile.gif
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OOC i want it to succeed also, but honestly i wont care as long as i have fun like i am now RPING it icon_smile.gif
honestly though isendur picked 2 REALLY bad co founders.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I guess it's my turn... There are many issues here at stake that make the discussion rather complex, so I'll keep it brief (yes, I know, my briefness standards are well above most people's). First and foremost, there's the sempiternal IC/OOC antithesis, which I see as being extremely fuzzy. One would have to be pretty psychotic (literally, not figuratively) to achieve a maximally crisp, sharp division. A sharp division is so difficult to achieve, that even professional actors (who provide the closest analogy here) must work very hard to stay as much as possible IC or OOC whenever appropriate, and even they cannot achieve it completely (in some tragic cases, the actor has gone literally insane in the process). I see all of my characters as extensions or alter egos of sorts that give me the chance to role-play certain aspects of myself I do not play in my real life, but I'd like to play in my real life. In this sense, I see a character of mine counterfactually, as something I actually am not but would like to be. Technically, to use the terminology of the metaphysician David Lewis, I see any character of mine as a sort of (multidimensional) counterpart of myself in a possible world.

I try not to fall prey of the rather simplistic, flat, dry, obvious, and ultimately boring view of RPing as 'doing IC anything one is not OOC'. In my case, then, there's something of me in Karise Dian (my only truly high-level character thus far in Dysotopia), and something of Karise Dian in me. RPing is precisely the ability to somewhat distance one's alter ego from oneself, but again, to me it has been (and will be) impossible to distance any character of mine from myself completely. For instance, I would feel most uncomfortable (and hence, have no fun) playing an extremely chaotic evil character (like Rumanos), for that would involve distancing my alter ego from my ego way too much for my taste (yes, it is a matter of taste, so I do not pretend my take on the IC/OOC issue to be the right one). I see all of this RPing thing as a relatively harmless social simulation of sorts, as a way not only of knowing myself a bit more (by exploring further my social abilities, my intellect, what I would have liked to be, etc.) but also to know what kind of people are out there (to the extent that one's character is a reflection of oneself). That is precisely what makes it fun to me (and having fun is crucial to me). But then again, it's all a matter of taste, so the above considerations are not intended to legislate over the dichotomy and how one should take it. I'm just telling you guys how I see it, and that's the right way to me. It may be the wrong way for others, but I really don't care, so I will not reply to any posts that in any way challenge or reject my way as the wrong way and anyone else's way as the right way. There is no absolute right or wrong view on RPing and the IC/OOC dichotomy. RPing ways and views on the IC/OOC dichotomy are relative (Protagoras' relativism certainly applies here...).

Now to the HC issue. I tend to agree with those who believe in the cause of the HC (IC as well as OOC), and I for one plan to stay in it and keep doing my job as usual (perhaps even harder, more patiently, more optimistically). The problem I see with the terms 'failure' and 'success' is that they are most unclear to me. Two crucial questions here. First, is the success/failure distinction an all-or-none matter? I say not. I (and, to that extent, Karise Dian) see that distinction as a matter of degree, as a dimension where total failure and total success are extremes that may well be harmful (yes, total success can be harmful). Here (as in almost anything in my OOC and IC activities in this RPing activity, especially the IC/OOC distinction), I like to apply a principle that can be called 'the relevance of gradual distinctions'. In its positive formulation, the principle says that distinctions that emphasize degree (as opposed to black-and-white, crisp dichotomies) are far richer, more interesting, and entertaining (in philosophy and science, more relevant; in ethics, more just) than crisp, dichotomic, binary distinctions. In its negative formulation, the principle says that black-white (and good-evil, lawful-unlawful, success-failure) simplistic, obvious, and ultimately boring (in the real world, much misery and suffering have been caused by such distinctions).

Second question, are 'success' and 'failure' being used IC, OOC, or a mixture of both? The success criteria IC are very different from the success criteria OOC. For the record, my OOC success criteria are to put my patience, perseverance, tolerance to frustration, optimism, idealism, and argumentative abilities to the test, again, in a relatively harmless social simulation, and ultimately to have as much fun as possible (OOC I tend to be a cynic, that is, a skeptic and pessimist, but I believe that makes me a worse person, so I would very much like to be more of a believer and an optimist, so that's how I choose to play Karise; perhaps playing Karise in that and other ways might even help me change in ways I'd like to change, and, to that extent, to become a better person; such can be the therapeutic value of RPing). Under those criteria, the HC has been quite successful to me, so OOC I'd very much like to continue playing along with it. My IC criteria are somewhat permeated by my OOC criteria. Karise Dian is (far) more optimistic and idealistic than myself, so she firmly believes in the HC cause, and now, more than ever, she will stay in it, despite her being painfully aware of the tides against it (patience, optimism, and perseverance are the measures of how much one believes in a cause). In real life (OOC), I (and, to that extent, Karise) strongly believe that anything that really matters takes time, effort, dedication, patience, faith, and perseverance. So Karise has (and, to that extent, I have) much faith in the HC ideal, cause, principle, project, or whatever you want to call it. Occasional failures will not abate Karise. In fact, Karise (and to that extent, I) takes such failures as a sign that the HC has struck a cord in Dysotopia.

Myself and Karise
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Marine436
PostThu 02/27/03 6:16pm
*blinks* damn you for makeing me read this *hasent read it yet*  Reply with quote
 
Malakalam
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no offense Karise.. but I fail to see how that relates to me..

I refer to my character as lawful-evil or lawful-neutral because thats his mindset. He believes people are stupid, and that he has all the answers, just not the power needed. If he sees no route to such power.. why would he stay around?
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No offense taken, Malak (I don't see disagreement with, misunderstanding of, or dismissal of my views as a reason for offense)...

Well, all what I said relates to me, of course. It relates to you insofar as we share views. If you agree with absolutely nothing of what I said, then, obviously, it does not relate to you at all. If you agree with some of what I said, then it relates to you in that proportion. And if you agree completely, well, then it relates completely to you.

On the other hand, I am not sure I was trying to convince Malak (much less you, the person who plays Malak) of staying in the HC, if that's what you meant (i.e., you/Malak did not find any convincing argument in my reply for you to stay in the HC). If Malak, the character, IC, does not want to continue in the HC, then so much the worse for him and so much the better for us. In fact, now that Malak has revealed his true intentions within the HC, then, in the interest of RPing, Karise votes (IC) for Malak's immediate removal of the HC (of course, that does not mean that I, the person who plays Karise, votes for banning you, the person who plays Malak, from playing with us in the HC). But if it is only Malak, then a change of character (a lawful good character whose intentions are more consistent with the HC's ideals) would do just fine. Now, pushing the IC/OOC distinction to a crisp one, if you, strictly OOC, the person who plays Malak, for whatever reason, does not wanna play such a character (i.e., if the only way for you, the real person who plays Malak Kalam, OOC, to have fun playing NWN is to play against the HC's true intention; or if playing a member of the HC in Dysotopia is not fun for you anymore), well, I say there's nothing else to discuss. Perhaps the HC (or the way the HC has been evolving) is not right up your RPing interests. I for one will not attempt to change your RPing interests (or anyone else's, for that matter).

One thing is for Malak Kalam to stay around, a different (although, again, fuzzy) one is for you, the person, the player who plays Malak Kalam to stay around. I do not know you, the player (the person who plays Malak, OOC) personally well enough to vote to ban you from RPing in the HC... So, which is it? Is it you, the person, the player who plays Malak Kalam, who is bored of RPing as a member of the HC, or is it just Malak Kalam who sees no point in continuing as a member of the HC? If it is just Malak Kalam, then change the character and that's it. We could even RP the admission of a new character played by you (in fact, I have two other possible candidate characters in mind). But if it is you, the player, who has gotten bored with Malak Kalam, the HC, or even Dysotopia, then I would only suggest you to revise your RPing interests. My answer to that question should be clear from what I said in my previous post, but I'd like to read yours anyway (again, I don't expect anyone to accept my views on RPing and the IC/OOC distinction)...

In real life, if someone I am playing with, say, Monopoly, Clue, or whatever, tells me something like 'Hey, I am bored, I do not want to play this game anymore', then I tend to say 'ok, let us play something else...'. I do not try to convince him of playing more. Boredom is not something one can easily argue or rationally convince someone against.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2003 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

In fact, now that Malak has revealed his true intentions within the HC,

Malak hasn't revealed anything IC yet. Thats why this post is OOC. It is extremely important that you realize this. This is simply me, the player, saying that I feel my character has hit a dead end.

Quote:

to have fun playing NWN is to play against the HC's true intention

Malak wants law, and lots of it. In his mind, he is helping the people of the island by imposing such an extreme degree of law.. I don't see how he's playing against the HC's true intentions of creating a more lawful society on the island. He's never thought of himself as evil, and a great deal of people probably wouldn't consider him evil, as he does what he does for the "good" of the people, rather than for his own good. He believes that by setting firm rules and severly punishing anyone who breaks them, he can improve society and generally make things better. The evil side of him is he doesn't care how he does it. He'll do whatever it takes to reach his goal, including the sacrifice of innocents. He'd order the assassination of murderers if he thought it would get him anywhere. While this certainly isn't good for the council if it gets out, he's very careful to keep everything quiet.

Quote:
Is it you, the person, the player who plays Malak Kalam, who is bored of RPing as a member of the HC, or is it just Malak Kalam who sees no point in continuing as a member of the HC? If it is just Malak Kalam, then change the character and that's it.


Its kind of both - I guess I could simply move Malak Kalam down to an enforcer, but he isn't built for it. I didn't plan him for PVP combat, and I certainly can't see him becoming lawful good, as my ideal pvp character is. I'm more frustrated than bored with the HC.

Marine wrote:

ooc for the record malakam isnt the perfect fir for this concile ethier !

remember when you killed poor named alone, weak, at level 5

Your character fired several spells at me in town, publicly insulted and mocked me, made a huge show of the fact that there is no law in the town, and then refused to an honorable duel. So I slew you, alone, with no witnesses, in the bandit cave, where you easily could have been killed by the resident bandits.


As this point somehow seems to keep being lost - The reason I'm talking about stopping playing Malak Kalam is that I feel he's hit a dead end, his viewpoint and methods are not viable in dysotopia because of the lack of law and our failure to replace the dead white guard and the uncaring OSB. I feel that the character has become unfeasible, he simply can not continue in dysotopia, and the character, realizing this, would simply catch a ship to somewhere else, rather than stay here where he'll forever be powerless to stop the chaos around him.

I'm not bored of playing Malak Kalam, I'm not bored of playing on Dysotopia, I'm not bored of playing as a member of the High Council. I just do not see a way that Malakalam the character can continue to live in Dysotopia without an extreme shift in his values, which I definatly can't see happening based on how he was made.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough on revealing Malak's true intentions. Should you decide to continue playing Malak (or any other char), Karise will act as if she had never read or heard that OOC revelation of yours, and be based wholly on Malak's (or any other char's)IC actions and assertions. Actually, I'd look forward to RPing that. But then again, you feel you won't be able to RP that part, at least in the HC, perhaps even in Dysotopia. Would it be fair to say you are frustrated not so much with the HC per se, but with Dysotopia (or, rather, its moderators, DMs, and the OSB) in general (regarding the kind of character you want to RP)? Perhaps, you the player feel that Malak has hit a dead-end, not only with the HC, but, more generally, with pre-rebirth Dyso? After all, Marine/Nel's actions had their negative effects because Conrad and Uin are too inflexible, and unfairly over-generalized such actions to the entire HC? Perhaps the other members of the HC (you included) could RP an attempt to convince Conrad and Uin that the HC as a whole shouldn't pay for the actions of just one of its members. That could be an option for Malak to stay as a magister in the HC.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conrad and Uin are almost never on, so its very hard to RP with them. All they see are the posts made in the forums, and whenever Nel did anything, it always ended up in the forums, and it always made her look bad.
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Malakalam
PostTue 03/04/03 1:52am
just in case you're wondering why I haven't released the dirt yet, I figure I'll wait until this whole chaos thing peters out.  Reply with quote
 
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