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Removing Item Level Restrictions...
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Do you like the item level restriction ideas presented?
Yes, I think it'll add a lot to gameplay.
64%
 64%  [ 35 ]
No, leave things the way they are.
22%
 22%  [ 12 ]
I don't care, I'll play no matter what you change.
12%
 12%  [ 7 ]
Total Votes : 54

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Geshtal
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 4:15 pm    Post subject: Removing Item Level Restrictions... Reply with quote

Well, I would like to start a new thread on a new idea that was brought to me by one of you. I'll lay out the basics here and we can all determine what we think of something like this in Rebirth...

The basic idea:
Remove item level restrictions and creat a unique system to deal with such things...

What do you mean?
I mean, we would stop allowing NWN to dictate the item level restrictions...and we would handle it with a new system. (wait, didn't I just type that?)

This means that any character can equip any item. Which isn't entirely unrealistic. I'm certain I could walk into a weapon shop and lift up and hold a 30lb battle axe of frost. Here is the kicker...

Each time you enter a round of combat, a check is done against your equipment. We see how powerful (basd on gold value) the item is you're weilding and we check to see if your character is able to handle such an item. If not, you make a fool out of yourself. Remember that Battleaxe of Frost I was holding in the store? I decided to buy it and go chop a tree with it...only problem is that I can hardly swing it...so I go back to take a swing and it's sheer weight takes me to the ground with it...causing me to drop the weapon and also causing me 2d6 cold damage! I can almost hear that tree laughing at me. The same would happen with armor...your manage to get this 90lb plate on but your're a mage...you try doing anything and you simpy fall over...still protected but unable to fight. Equipping a staff of great power and using it incorrectly may cause the staff to explode in a myriad of magical entities killing you and everyone within 30m of you!

This system would allow special kits to have weapons (perhaps an assassin dagger that does a LOT of piercing damage) that would give them particular advantages. It would also allow people to use weapons of a godly caliber as they exceeded the XP required for level 20. They higher the XP, the better the weapons they could use...including weapons up to over a level 40 requirement! (assuming such things will exist)

To allow users to test their skills with weapons we will place practice dummies around shops and other areas of trade. This will allow people to test out their new equipment before venturing out.

Anyway, those are some thoughts on the matter at hand. Please post comments, suggestions and concerns on this system and we'll see if we like it!

Ah, what the heck, I'll start a poll even...they tend to attract people. icon_wink.gif
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting ideas. Personaly, I'm still a little up in the air on the issue, but I'm always up for new things. How scarce are the really good weapons going to be? I would like to see scarcity and avalibility control the "high level" items more than level restrictions though, so I vote Yes.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

he said they where going to be very sacarad

anyways, i personally love the Idea, this will make it possible for such Extreamly Rare Artifacts (level 50 + weapons) that are cursed, or shift your alinment (if rped right)

Just some idea's i personally love it
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Malakalam
PostTue 03/04/03 5:21pm
isn't proficency where you learn how to swing that 30lb axe without throwing yourself to the ground?  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOW!!!!!!!!

Question, will there be anyway of getting better with a weapon that his "high level" without actually leveling?

Or can the level one orc barbarian pretty much use all great axes no matter which level?

But not use magic things or, this assassin dagger

Same with mages and magic items and such
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Marine436
PostTue 03/04/03 5:32pm
hmm, it seems like ethier\or , possible both can be done drudly  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um, I can sum up the rarity of items over a level 15 requirement...

VERY

For each item that is over level 15 there will be only one copy...because these are items legends were made of. Other than those items created with tradeskills, special items will be EXTREMLEY rare.

The point is that very few people will make level 17+ So everyone will be on equal terms with few excelling in their arts and becomming masters and moving to a league of their own.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Malakalam wrote:
isn't proficency where you learn how to swing that 30lb axe without throwing yourself to the ground?


We're talking about LEVEL restrictions...not item profienciency restrictions...there is a HUGE difference. You still have to be proficient to equip the items...but whether you can control the intense magical properties of the item are a different story...
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Marine436
PostTue 03/04/03 5:59pm
sounding sweet yes very sweet.....*Remembers how far off it is and pouts*  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ofcourse, those item level restrictions always bothered me. If you can get them, why can't you use them? If I worked my *ss off to get that greatsword+5 from the hands of many enemies, shouldn't I be allowed to use it?
It's brilliant, and the way you want people not to be able to use certain stuff is also good. Just do it already!
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an incredibly good idea. This is exactly what I used to like to do when I'd DM. As long as you're strong enough to pick something up, you can use it, but you might chop your own head off!

One thing, though: why not try to do something about weapon proficiencies, too? I mean, realistically, anyone over 8 years old can carry a handaxe. But if you're *not* proficient, see the thing I said earlier about your head.

Oooo...I can't wait to see people trying to use powerful magic items when they're level 4 and getting turned into badgers....
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Geshtal
PostTue 03/04/03 7:51pm
hehehe icon_mrgreen.gif  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this sounds really good, but I admit that I have my doubts about the effects on server performance icon_cry.gif
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fighter has 2 longswords.
One is covered in fire, one is not.
Are they used differently?
No.

Also far a prime example of why item lvl restrictions should be removed go to Anphillia. The Tradeskills system ther means you can be lvl 1 and craft the bestest armour in existance. Bit unfair if the MAKER can't use it.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there is already a check each combat round...and it;s relatively light...I can implenent it into the current check seamlessly...and shouldn't effect performance anymore than leaving one more loot bag on the ground.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, then I'm all for it, though I have to say that the point Uin raises seems valid to me too. I understand that it might be hard to control spell-like abilites on an magical staff, but the difference in handling between a sword that does normal damage and one that does additional fire damage shouldn't be that great.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, handling the fire sword as far as *proficiencies* go shouldn't be affected, but a sword with fire on it is a LOT different than a non-enchanted one, for that very reason: the one with fire is *enchanted*, a.k.a. MAGICAL, and therefore might be at least a little bit harder to weild properly.

I dunno. Up to Gesh, ultimately.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wrong. say you are useing a Stick, to fight off a Kiler Badger, Well, you light the Strick on fire, all but the end (where you old it) now its a competely new weapon.
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ShadowCore
PostTue 03/04/03 8:19pm
But then it's not enchanted, so that doesn't count emot-yum.gif  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this would be good as long as the indication of what lvl the item is stays in the description. There are some of us that cannot look at a weapon and tell if it's a lvl 10 one or a lvl 17 one. I would like to know that I'm sticking relatively close to my own lvl, so I don't chop my own head off.

That's just dealing with weapons. It looks like the original question was lvl restrictions at all. That means none on soul stones (woot), or any accessories you would have, like robes, armor, rings, ammys, etc. One of the things I don't like is when I walk clear out to Butterfly Fields, get a ss, and then can't use it. I was there and I earned it. Also, with this new xp system, it's fairly time consuming to get up above lvl 11. Thus, that means no boots of speed for a long while. If you can somehow scrape together enough gp to buy them, I think you should be able to use them. Of course, having them take off running on their own with a lvl 3 char in them would be pretty funny.

Does this mean there's would have to be an "ability" check on every item in the game?
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ShadowCore
PostTue 03/04/03 9:01pm
Actually, it'd mean no boots of speed at all, unless you can make them. Remember, almost no magic stuff will be available, like it should be.  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maelstrom696969 wrote:
True, handling the fire sword as far as *proficiencies* go shouldn't be affected, but a sword with fire on it is a LOT different than a non-enchanted one, for that very reason: the one with fire is *enchanted*, a.k.a. MAGICAL, and therefore might be at least a little bit harder to weild properly.

I dunno. Up to Gesh, ultimately.


The fire is an automatic effect of the weapon, the fighter doesn't even have to think about it.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dunno if levels should be shown because it means you are taking a risk with using too powerful weapons...this should be something you have to do so that cautious players will use worse weapons without fail but more daring ones will take the risjk and be a better combatent while having a chance of messing up every round, the leve of the items shouldn't be obvious on them.

Also someone was saying about proficiencies.....for as long as I can remember in D&D any character can use any weapon or tool but abilities and such only improve on his ability to do so. A wizard using a greatsword with martial proficiency is going to get like a -6 or -8 penalty to attack rolls and I think this is reasonable. I dunno how hard it'd be to code Gesh but I really think that anyone should be able to use any weapon or item and only get penalties or bonuses based on skills and level or lack thereof. Proficiency shouldn't define being able to use a weapon or not, anyone can use anything, its just a matter of how well.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uin, the problem is, that lvl 1 characters should not be using a greatsword +5 or something. People don't have to think about it when they use it, but it should be harder to use. So maybe you can look at it like this: If the character isn't adept at using a fiery blade(ie. too low a level/inexperienced), he might hurt himself in the flames. Same goes for magical other stuff, the character can't control the powers of the sword properly, so he swings completely wrong and chops his leg off. Something like that.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea, experience reflects a characters abilities as much as skills and feats do because a level one character with a base +1 bonus with his weapons is not going to know how to use any weapon especially well and a magical bonus will only add to his risk of personal injury from himself more than to the chance of hitting and hurting an enemy. Level restrictions were an easier way of doing my Bioware didn't really shape out completely. This is a computer game and has to make concessions but NWN definitely could have been alot more like real D&D and alot better for it if they had taken some more time and effort. Thats my opinion but comparing Gesh's idea to what real life would be like...it definitely makes more sense while also improving the game dynamics for fun I think.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2003 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCore wrote:
Uin, the problem is, that lvl 1 characters should not be using a greatsword +5 or something.


I always thought about this this way:
a lvl 1 char should be able to wield a +5 sword, but he shouldn't have access to it! In pnp, that's no problem, cause the DM has the control over the items.
In NWN, the builder has the control, but theirs a new factor:
While parties in pnp are mostly balanced, in NWN, sooner or later lvl 20 chars will beginn equipping their second chars/low level friends with ubergear, and we'll have lvl 1 chars running around with flaming swords.

If players would be more disciplined about this, playing without ILR could be done. As long as the high level items are a) expensive b) hard to craft c) hard to obtain via quests, all should be fine
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Drudley
PostWed 03/05/03 12:34am
Dreamin, and since they will be hard to obtain expensive and all that you said, there is no problem  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2003 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know me, I adapt to whatever the winds of change dictate ... on face value, this sounds very cool ... though I would harbor some small concerns about it somehow being exploited in time. While level restrictions may fail in some respects from a realism angle, they do provide pretty solid limitations against some things getting out of hand.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2003 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drudley wrote:
Dreamin, and since they will be hard to obtain expensive and all that you said, there is no problem

All that I said besides the player factor... I mean, why are all these people with 100% faith running around? Did the tokens jump all by themselves into the barter window? icon_mrgreen.gif
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course i like the idea "better weapons". But i dont think it last very long in-game nwn.
Some weeks/month ago we discussed the matter of powerplayers. Imagine powerplayers with lvl. 40 weapons...
I know i dont want to... icon_confused.gif
Its not becuz im a wuzz but i think the gameplay wont be the same. And also: Think of all the newbies! You are a lvl. 5 character who just arrived to dyso. You go up to the smith and buy all the high tech equipment without knowing that i will cost you in the end... Maybe im wrong - then tell me... weirdlook.gif
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