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Pickpocketing
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Foozbane
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 5:27 am    Post subject: Pickpocketing Reply with quote

Just as a suggestion, I think it would be cool to see a new pickpocketing system in RB to replace NWN's. Some ideas:

1. In the current system, the victim player receives a lost-item message right away when PPed, regardless of whether they made their Spot check. It'd be nice if they could perhaps get that message later, say when they rest, or after a random amount of time.

2. It would be great if you, as the thief, could "study" a particular victim(s) for a while before you attempt to pickpocket, and the longer you studied them the better your odds are of succeeding, and of getting something good out of their pack. A long period of study could reveal a way to snatch that expensive ring which the owner has secreted away in the bottom of their pack. This could even be automatic -- just being within 30 meters of a particular character for a longer period of time could count as studying.

3. Stealing huge weapons and armor is hardly realistic. I think PPable items should consist only of non-weapons/staves/armor (unless, perhaps, you studied them for a really long time ..) As well, no rogue with half a wit is going to pick single rocks or arrows out of somebody's pack.

Thoughts?

Fooz
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zak_fel
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes!
weapons and armour cant be pickpocketed, thats totally unrealistic.
For a warrior, his blade and armour is his life and honour, he would not allow them to be taken. His weapon will always be by his side, and armour on him.
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Drudley
PostTue 03/11/03 7:29am
I think he is talking about the armor that he isnt wearing at the time, same with weapon...  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know its in the system but really its equally ridicolous that anyone fighter or not carries around a few helmets/suits of armor/eniogh swords or wands to open a shop/half the pot itinery of Elerina temple/rings galore/arrows sufficiant to equip an army/ etc etc
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Malakalam
PostTue 03/11/03 8:27am
not really, considering that in NWN you can't buy a pack mule like you would in PnP..  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree pretty much fully to all those suggestions, Fooz. Especially the "study" part. Very cool. I see no reason to go against these rules, as it onnly balances things out, but I guess it is up to you and Gesh to understand how doable it is. I guess it is though, because you are giving these suggestions.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, to be fair, I think anything up to the size of a shortsword should be pick pocketable. I do not think a shortsword is anything that big, and its easy to get from someone, although it holds more risk.

Maybe even allow rogues to set preferences on what they would like to steal, in a small dialogue.
"What do you prefer to take as a target"
1) Rings
2) Misc items
3) gems
4) small weapons
etc etc

the chance of getting such an item would just increase over other items, very usefull if you trying to steal something like a plot item.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well from my own D&D reading and experience I'd have to say rogues (unless they are VERY good at what they do or their victim is incredibly unobservant) don't exactly have time to select the items they with to steal. They kind of grab for whatever they can get from out of someones pack, thats why, realistically, filling a pack with bullets would make it so a rogue would have a very hard time pulling anything of use out from them all.

For the new system i would suggest sized based pping, that is size of theo bject being stolen. While the rogue doesn't get to "pick" the object he wants persay, reaching into someone's pack you can feel the size of an object so a rogue should choose the size of the objects he prefers. mediums should almost be out of the question and larges definitely are but I would say everything is possible, with a increasingly large penalty as you increase in size
eventually rogues can overcome the tiny and small object penalties...and a true master could overcome the medium one about 1/4 to half the time but of course there's still the chance of failure. I wouldleave chain pping scripts in obviously to keep abusers out but I would add an additonal protection because when a rogue steals something from you and you notice...you're going to act right away. A player takes time to make his character react but the rogue was prepared so on failure he'll start to run and he has an unrealistic advantage in the situation he got caught in. Adding a script to auto-hostile and auto target the rogue would be usefull because not only would fighters begin combat but it would alert the mage or cleric faster than text of a rogues attempt and he could immediately start flinging spells (even ones requiring hostile to work) based on just what he sees going on on the screen.

Fooz's idea of seeing the item gone later is definitely key and I think when you rest is a really good time...if you could somehow attach a script to remember every item lost (besides being sold or traded off someonhow?) between rests you could then see a list of the items later when you do rest again and proceed to swear about that dam glather axe it took you three hours to get that jon stole from you cause he's a dirty rotten bastard!!!! hehehehe, I'm not an angry person really icon_smile.gif. At any rate, just some ideas based on real-life, common sense, and a little bit of the "old school" 2nd edition AD&D heh.
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Malakalam
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why bother having the message at all? you'll notice its gone eventually..

Edit: before I forget - Are we going to have jails for all the hundreds of thieves that will pop up after this is implemented? lol
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zak_fel
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2003 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look at this like this.
Zedd Fel uses a shield, longbow, an axe, a longsword and shortsword.
The longsword by his left, his short sword by his right. The shield on his back, his axe under the shield, also on his back. His longbow, hung around his shoulders.

Realistically, none of his weapons will be taken from him.
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dreamin'
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2003 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zak_fel wrote:
Look at this like this.
Zedd Fel uses a shield, longbow, an axe, a longsword and shortsword.
The longsword by his left, his short sword by his right. The shield on his back, his axe under the shield, also on his back. His longbow, hung around his shoulders.

Realistically, none of his weapons will be taken from him.

Realistically, if he ever's gonna try to switch from sword to axe during a fight, his head will be chopped off before he got his hands around the axe' hilt icon_eek.gif
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2003 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

or he could just fling the axe in a random direction, but with a bit of bad luck some nasty hobbitsses...errm halflings may come along and take it ^_^
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Solo_Core
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2003 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah i love the no big weapons and armor stealing. i mean how can by example roido get a 50 lbs flaming greataxe out of my backpack without me even noticing. i think that would even encumber him right away icon_smile.gif btw that axe is also my favorite weapon and always in the first quickslot so i think i would keep an extra eye on that axe.
on a other note how can i carry five armours and 4 axes in one backpack :S icon_wink.gif
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2003 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solo_Core wrote:
yeah i love the no big weapons and armor stealing. i mean how can by example roido get a 50 lbs flaming greataxe out of my backpack without me even noticing. i think that would even encumber him right away icon_smile.gif btw that axe is also my favorite weapon and always in the first quickslot so i think i would keep an extra eye on that axe.
on a other note how can i carry five armours and 4 axes in one backpack :S icon_wink.gif


perfect example of how game mechanics and realism dont mix.
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Azaziel
PostSat 03/15/03 11:33am
Weight / size is only half the story. A < 10 int/wis fighter is unlikely to notice you have removed a body part let alone a sword from his pack.  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2003 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's why there is a SPOT check, to see if they notice it.
Even a 1 int guy would notice if they missed something if they made their spot check, it's there for a reason, you know.
If animals know when something has moved, I am quite sure that no matter what your intelligence is, you would notice it, IF you made a spot check.

BUT it is weird to steal something like that, so there should at least be a penalty for stealing a large item.
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Malakalam
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2003 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could also just rack it up to the fact that level 20 heros are epic heros, these are the people who you make stories about them stealing entire caves out from under the dragon, or stole a town while everyone was asleep icon_razz.gif

Lets limit it based on level or base skill, not just limit it all together.
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Glorin
PostSat 03/15/03 5:32pm
shut up brant, just shut up!  Reply with quote
 
Lord Gloin
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2003 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think about real life. What can real pickpocketers do? It would be good to stay as close to that idea as possible. We don't want thieves being god-like with their pickpocketting.......
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Malakalam
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2003 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Think about real life. What can real pickpocketers do? It would be good to stay as close to that idea as possible. We don't want thieves being god-like with their pickpocketting.......


A real life thief would be a 1st level thief, maybe up to 3rd.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2003 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

A real life thief would be a 1st level thief, maybe up to 3rd.


And that is where the fantasy of NWN comes in. Thieves are able to steal from characters with even the most attuned of senses. A common thief cannot steal from someone who has keen senses, but a thief with high abilities could do it ease.

I'm just saying be realistic with what they can pickpocket, the situation, and who they are stealing from. new_scatter.gif
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2003 10:35 pm    Post subject: PickPockets Reply with quote

How about make it a skill item..such as a new theif can steal one square items...when their skill level reaches 10 they can take 2 square items...and so on..this way apickpocket has to be really devoted to work their way up to large items...make it balanced against their skill level and if their hidden in shadows...
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Kindo
PostSat 03/15/03 10:36pm
The square thing was an interesting idea. Hmm...  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2003 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it is actually quite amusing that halflings are able to steal weapons so big they can't use them if you think about it...

But seriously size restrictions sound ok, but it is quite possible for a legendary thief to grab a sword that someone has dangling by his side especially if that person has so much stuff on his back the sword would only be about 10% the weight the victim is carrying no matter how big it is. Armors are tougher since they are usually strapped in tightly. After carrying around that weight all day the victim would only breathe a sigh of relief and thanks the gods for that extra bit of energy. We are talking about legendary thieves as was mentioned before. The main problem would be to hide it after grabbing it from the victim though. Where do you leave a blade as big as yourself (in the case of halflings)...Then again how are people stuffing 3 blades, 2 armors, 100 arrows, a bow, a spare helmet, 1000000 goldpieces and miscelleneous other stuff in a backpack??? When I go on holiday I barely get my tent in the damn thing! A pickpocket in real life doesn't just bump into random people even if it seems so. They study their victims from a distance, looking for gaps in their victim's attention. And at that moment they strike and they are trained enough to get away with your briefcase, your wallet, your goldemblazoned cane or grandma's umbrella. It's do-able for a good thief,let alone for a legendary one!I kinda liked the idea of simply discarding the message at all. Check your inventory if you thought the halfling who traveled with you across the plains was a tad suspicious. If something's missing draw your own conclusions. You are bright enough.

Rambling am I?
Ok short and to the point. Size matters. Studying a victim matters. And an unwitting victim shouldn't instantly find out. Good points Fooz.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2003 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I carry less than 80lbs of equipment despite my 24 (26?) str
When someone lifts the 40lbs piece of plate mail armor from my bag, should I strike out at the nearest person?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Platemail would fall under the Large Size cathegory i think and therefore practically impossible to steal even for a well trained crook. So you'd most likely notice the thief and yea you'd have reason to beat him up.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2003 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As others have mentioned, there is a thing called a spot check. If the thief fails this check, that is when you very actually notice that something is missing, as opposed to simply thinking that your pack seems easier to carry. If you fail your spot check, then you simply do not notice that you have lost that platemail, as well as the 87 bullets, 500 gold and various crap the thief got before getting their hands on something worthwhile.

I personally dont believe a size / weight restriction is appropriate for pp, especially with the new mods where (I hope!) there will be much fewer lvl 20 thieves (or at least lvl19 xxx lvl 1 rogue with 23+ pp). Partly this is because if the thief is behind you, you may not even see them at all let alone know who to blame for a lightened pack. I would love it if I could put bags of sand it someones pack to replace the approx weight of items I am removing, so that the mark doesnt even notice a change in weight, but that is probably beyond the limits of the NWN engine.

Just an FYI, my main char has 36 pp, so I dont fail ever but can still get spotted. On top of this he has something like 44 move silently and 50+ hide. Most people shouldnt be able to see him at all let alone see that a piece of their valued eq has made it into one of his bags of holding. Books of true seeing are a curse I tell you, and I look forward to their removal. Well, either that or being able to build traps of blindness or traps of dispelling... icon_twisted.gif

Taking a lead from Falk: Size doesnt really matter (IMHO), studying a victim is a nice idea especially if it stops you grabbing bullets, and if you dont pass the spot, you didnt notice anything.

Now give me my sandbags.. cussing.gif
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Drudley
PostSun 03/16/03 12:06pm
There are sandbags already... Just go find them  Reply with quote
 
Azaziel
PostSun 03/16/03 12:08pm
I have, but havent worked out how to get them into peoples packs.. icon_mrgreen.gif  Reply with quote
 
Drudley
PostSun 03/16/03 12:15pm
Trade them...  Reply with quote
 
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