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Multiclassing
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dreamin'
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2003 9:51 pm    Post subject: Multiclassing Reply with quote

Ok, as you all know multiclassing in NWN isn't handled like it should if you follow DnD rules. The main problem in NWN is the handling of class-exclusiv skills (esp. USE MAGIC ITEM)
The maximum rank in class exclusiv skills is class level +3. So a level 19 something, level 1 rogue char could have only 4 points in use magic device. It doesn't matter if you take the rogue level from 19 to 20 or at an earlier point, 4 points would be the max.
Properly implementing this rule would efficiently prevent those powergaming class combinations.
Problem is, how do you implement it? My first idea was to check the skill ranks after every level up, and if too many points are spent, store the amount of XP the char has, take one level from the char (deduct XP), set the XP back (player can level up again) and send a message to the player that he has to follow the maximum skill rank rule.
Should be absolutely no problem to implement, but may confuse some players, so you'd need to make the message easy to understand and probably post about the rule in the EULA.
If you're interested in implementing something like that I could send you the working script in about a week, I want to use it in my own little module, so I'm going to write it anyways, just don't have the time atm (analysis exam on monday, brrrrr cussing.gif )

Oh, and please don't post that I'm wrong about that rule!
I had this discussion a few times now, and I am right! Want to look for yourself? Pick up your 3rd Ed PHB and go to page 56. first paragraph "Skills" icon_look.gif
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Z
PostFri 03/14/03 10:31pm
A very good idea, I am all for this.
Pleaseeeeeee implement this Gesh
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Malakalam
PostFri 03/14/03 11:15pm
aww.. I kinda like the NWN does the skills, hehe icon_wink.gif  Reply with quote
 
Marine436
PostSat 03/15/03 2:50am
hehe, i agree Dreamen, that would be rather nice  Reply with quote
 
ShadowCore
PostSat 03/15/03 10:57am
Stupid pricky Bioware! I hate them!
Anyway,. nice idea, let's try to get this implemented.
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Falkhor
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2003 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anything preventing people from expoiting saved up skill points juuust so they can take one level of rogue for robbing people sounds good to me. It's mostly the rogue class being abused in this fashion and people can whine and nag as much as they want: THERE IS NO WAY A level 19 PALLADIN/level 1 ROGUE character can be justified as good roleplaying....
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Glorin
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2003 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

u should really get a taste of the new xp system before you go making suggestions. I dont even wanna think about how little exp someone would get if they dont multiclass to their favored class....prolly be in the negatives or something.
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dreamin'
PostSun 03/16/03 3:29am
How can not having maximum pp and use magic while being only one level of rogue hurt your XP?  Reply with quote
 
Malakalam
PostSun 03/16/03 4:10am
you take XP penalties if your highest level class is not your "favored class"

edit: typo.. 20% for each class


Last edited by Malakalam on Sun Mar 16, 2003 4:27 am, edited 1 time in total
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Jase
PostSun 03/16/03 4:13am
mwahahahaha huamns and half elves rule  Reply with quote
 
Glorin
PostSun 03/16/03 4:14am
no just humans  Reply with quote
 
Jase
PostSun 03/16/03 4:16am
...........? Ah well i'll be doing multi-class wizard cleric icon_smile.gif  Reply with quote
 
Zedium
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2003 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Errrm, I think they do use the rules as they should....
My rogue char can only have 4 use magic device when I make her the first time. So I think that is correct with the rules.
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Aling Karrde
PostSun 03/16/03 7:34am
I know this is late, but in reply to the first post in this thread, in any cross class skill you also get (level +3)/2 ranks  Reply with quote
 
Z
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2003 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zed, your rogue char must have been an exception, there are loads of 19 lvl wizards and 1 level rogues see around with maxed out rogue skills. Same with people who take 1 level of fighter to max out Discipline. Its wrong and people who do it probably know it, dreamin' and falk have basically said all this.

And Glorin about multiclassing, this is not stopping people multiclassing to their favored class at all (except if youre a pwergamer). On p&p, this rule lives and is accepted, people who play it multiclass and as dreamin said
Quote:

How can not having maximum pp and use magic while being only one level of rogue hurt your XP?

why not just settle for a few levels in your favoured class and rest in your others while having low skills in your favoured class so you dont have the xp penalty...But then theres no point in multiclassing!!! i hear you cry... Why?...Because of the low skill points.......I see icon_rolleyes.gif .....

While some people who reject this ( most of whom will be powergamers) then of course there are disadvantages to this but compared to the advantages of seriously reducing all those stupid non-rp class combos, i dont see why any of you shouldnt accept this.....

N:B Interesting to note the little support this rule has actually got (from posts here), few of the many regular players have actually posted support here... which says something... where did all the rhetoric go about reducing powergaming??
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dreamin'
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aling Karrde wrote:
I know this is late, but in reply to the first post in this thread, in any cross class skill you also get (level +3)/2 ranks

Yep, that's right, and I'd be glad if that would be implemented too, but I think to correct the handling of class-exclusive skills is even more important (esp. use magic). icon_wink.gif
Oh, and Z's note about the little support actually is right, I expected all powerroleplayers to post their support, but noo icon_razz.gif
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Drudley
PostSun 03/16/03 12:00pm
*Posts his support*  Reply with quote
 
Kindo
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2003 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your CLASS level is 1 you can max have four if it's a class skill and 2 if it's not. At level one, you can have 4 at the most, that's true. But those that multiclass ONE level upon reaching 20, they can have as high as possible. And therein lies the problem. A level 19 sorc has 'saved' some or all skill points he has accumulated and when reaching level 20 he takes a level of rogue, and can allocate some or *all* of those into the Rogue class skills. So, even though he is a level 1 rogue, he can have as high skills as a level 20 rogue. THAT's the bug, THAT's the exploit.
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Jase
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2003 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KINDO! Not everyone knew that! Now they'll start doing it icon_sad.gif I knew it but I don't do it cause its stupid rp
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Kindo
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2003 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although taking just *one* class of something in multiclassing is lame RP, it's mainly exploiting a bug within the system and it should indeed be banned.
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Maelstrom696969
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anything -- I say, ANYTHING -- can happen if the player has a good enough story to back it up. If we're going to do true RP, then you've got to think more along the lines of if this was rl. In rl, there are almost 6.5 billion people in the world, and I'll bet you anything that someone has started out a Rogue (remember this does NOT mean thief, but even then.....), and then changed their ways and followed a different path. Or, followed a path all their life, then, suddenly, gotten into something completely different. I dare you to dare me to come up with a rl example of ANY class combination. I'll give you full character history and everything.

The KEY is that is gets properly RP'd. Just taking it to get the skill points is, indeed lame.
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gaea106
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2003 10:45 pm    Post subject: I agree Reply with quote

I have to say that banning and making stuff illegal to do is going to do nothing against power gamers. They will find another way to make us miserable. I don't want so many restrictions that it makes it un-fun for everyone else. Maelstrom is right, there are good roleplay reasons for some of these things that powergamers take advantage off.

I roleplay my distaste for the power gamers in Dyso. Power gamers are sort of like lawyers, politicians, and CEO's of large corporations that go bust cause they lied. We need people to hate and gang up against in game.

Here's the way I play it out. They are the maniacs of society. The power hungry that steal from the honest and evil alike. They rape and pillage. They are the force that unites the people that normally don't mix. The scum of society that even the evil despises. icon_twisted.gif

And then I go back to my favorite saying today. IT'S JUST A GAME.
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Coral_Reef
PostFri 03/21/03 4:32pm
Hear Hear!  Reply with quote
 
Kin, The many
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 3:12 am    Post subject: Powergaming and cross-classing Reply with quote

Easy solution would be to take away the saved points at the end of a level up...therein causing someone who waits till level 20 to cross with rogue or another class to use only the points from the current level up.They will have to use points wisely since you have to have high intelligence to take advantage of many points most powergamers are not an intelligence based charecter this will limit what they can do.

*For those who fight there is always money*
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 3:14 am    Post subject: Re: Powergaming and cross-classing Reply with quote

Kin, The many wrote:
Easy solution would be to take away the saved points at the end of a level up...therein causing someone who waits till level 20 to cross with rogue or another class to use only the points from the current level up.They will have to use points wisely since you have to have high intelligence to take advantage of many points most powergamers are not an intelligence based charecter this will limit what they can do.


you realize that would eliminate cross class skills altogether, don't you?
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Matthijs says:
   oh ja, ik weet het zonet nog niet
Matthijs says:
   het ziet er toch wel een beetje naar uit dat we nederlands praten
Matthijs says:
   mischien moet ik dan maar eens vaker nederlands gaan praten
Matthijs says:
   kan je me ook meteen niet op al mijn spellinsfouten wijzen
There you have it! indisputable proof Solo's a fascist!!!
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Azaziel Seirim
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a better solution would be to prune the points given to any skill after the char does a level-up. (or on login). Force a lvl19 cleric/lvl1 rogue to have at most 4 to any rogue skills. Gets complex on skills shared among classes admittedly, but at least you dont have lvl 1 rogues with the skills of a lvl 20 rogue.

Oh, replace rogue / cleric with suitable classes of course, just picked a likely example.

None of this is likely to happen I think. Perhaps the server vault could be periodically scanned though for characters which are obviously exploiting this bug.
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Kindo
PostWed 03/26/03 6:19am
I don't even know why it is possible to save skill points at level ups. It's totally illogical.  Reply with quote
 
Shin2k
PostWed 03/26/03 6:27am
It is possible yes, and its really irritating to know a fighter can use any item they want making them nearly invurnable  Reply with quote
 
ShadowCore
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use those points spared at level ups, because it's the only way to get anything into cross-class skills without ignoring other skills. So don't eliminate THAT. But perhaps you should use the character class-level to determine if you can use it as a class skill, NOT the total level.
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dreamin'
PostWed 03/26/03 12:30pm
Saving skill points would be no problem at all if the max ranks in class/cross class/class exklusive skills would be handled correctly...  Reply with quote
 
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