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Looting and miscellaneous questions
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Spears
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 2:32 pm    Post subject: Looting and miscellaneous questions Reply with quote

Ok, this is related to Dysotopia 2x, but it might come up nowadays, so I was just wondering- I'll use West, and uhm... lets say Bob as an example.

* Bob kills the skeletal devourer, and I steal the gosu items in the chest. Suppose West is wearing something black with a helmet (he usually wears light colors)- can Bob say "stop West!" and such? Can he PM me and tell me to return his loot? Also, can he complain to the city that I am a thief and whatnot? Thats considered 'bad' RP right?

* Secondly, is party chat considered IC or OOC? Should we use the ol' cup and string method to decipher party chat between party members? I mean we damn well didn't have mobiles back then. I see a mix of IC and OOC in party chat, and I was just curious to see how you all percieve it to be.

* Lastly, about impostors- I was talking to Xavier Dotson (now known as Henflyer, knight of Lathander) who was magically disguised... how is one able to prove that he isn't a real paladin? He can deny any technicality, and we won't have any say proving him wrong either. Is there anyway to 'unbuff' this magical disguise?

I appreciate the help, thanks icon_smile.gif
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Party chat could be understood as using magical stones that allow select people to communicate with each other.

As far as looting I tend to agree with you unless Bob knows you very well and may recognize you under a different armour, I don't know how he can ask you to return the loot. However West how can someone as righteous as you can revert to such low tactics as thieving icon_mrgreen.gif .

This is only my point and the whole issue is probably up to the law (or the DM's)
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The whole 'fantisy' of the game allows you to do whatever the heck you feel like, as far as chatting in concerned.

The more hardcore and retentive players generally refraine from any IC dialog when in Party or Tell modes.

At the same time, 'magical stones' sounds like bland reasoning.

As a personal preferance, when in a party, I still use Talk mode exclusivly, to avoide any confusion.

And, whenever possiable, I only use tells for Ooc bussiness, unless stated otherwise, which is generally something along the lines of

*you feel a desire to check the room down the hall*

or

*you hear screams comming from the cliff above*


Hope that helps, but, as always, its a matter of preferance and how retentive your fellow players are. I'm not going to call you on it, and I'm not going to judge you for it. icon_biggrin.gif
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yo West, since you mentioned me, i'm going to make a small note.

Yes, you can dispel it, with Mordenkianen's Disjunction (In NWN, anyways, alot more in PNP. Xavier Dotson is disguised with the 3rd edition, eigth level Trickery Domaion spell "Polymorph Any Object." So, just cast some sort of dispelling thing via a wand, spellbook or innate magic to get rid of the diguise.

-or-

Scry. Scrying or telepathy. Just be creative and find a way to read my mind to figure out my true intentions.

Hehe, and even then if you smart off to me Neverwinter attacks Dysotopia.

Ever hear of "political immunity?"

"Stop West", involving the skeletal devourerer

No, he really can't if you wear light colors and a different helmet/no helmet, and now you're wearing all dark colors with a new helmet. Unless your sword has some sort of emlem of Helm on it, at which point they would need to get close enough to see it, and that would ultimately depend on how big the sword is. (Roll a Spot check!)

Party Chat: IC or OOC?

Either or. Decide ahead of time, then figure out exactly how it is party chat. Magical stones are best, or magical birds for a more pointless explination. Whoever heard of magical birds that fly around with only one whim: Deliver messages. Besides, they aren't going to fly from Eleriina and into the Emerald Caverns, birds might be pretty stupid, but they aren't fearless!
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 5:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Looting and miscellaneous questions Reply with quote

West Whitewind wrote:

* Lastly, about impostors- I was talking to Xavier Dotson (now known as Henflyer, knight of Lathander) who was magically disguised... how is one able to prove that he isn't a real paladin? He can deny any technicality, and we won't have any say proving him wrong either. Is there anyway to 'unbuff' this magical disguise?

I appreciate the help, thanks icon_smile.gif


I have a high spot skill and a high wisdom. So I believe it is in character for me to be able to see through Xavier's disguise. At least some times.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now Aronthal, you've never even met me and you scream out my name through a perfect *****MAGICAL***** disguise.

Are you trying to tell me your character has magical eyes? I've come in contact with people that used to spend every waking moment of their time around me, and they can't see through my diguise.

One was an elven cleric. High Spot, elven eyes/intuition and high wisdom.

Are you trying to tell me that your character is perfect?

There is only one way to peer through my diguise, and thats to look into my head with telepathy or scrying. Otherwise, you'll have to dispell it, stupid little elven eyes aren't going to do anyhting but gaze upon someone that doesn't even look like who I really am.

Is that so hard to destroy your perfect character, Aronthal? Or does he have to be so perfect he can look through a magical diguise?

Yes, I believe it is in me to dictate that your character isn't perfect.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I only read post one...
1. Yes that would be bad Rp. UNLESS your character says something, by which they can reconize your voice. I would say something as *in a muffled voice*

2. Party is OOC. Mainly because only your party can hear it. Siting in the middle of a group of people and talking without being heard would be hard. useing magic stones and such... that would be a tell.

3. Dont know.... icon_question.gif
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grusk wrote:
Now Aronthal, you've never even met me and you scream out my name through a perfect *****MAGICAL***** disguise.

Are you trying to tell me your character has magical eyes? I've come in contact with people that used to spend every waking moment of their time around me, and they can't see through my diguise.

One was an elven cleric. High Spot, elven eyes/intuition and high wisdom.

Are you trying to tell me that your character is perfect?

There is only one way to peer through my diguise, and thats to look into my head with telepathy or scrying. Otherwise, you'll have to dispell it, stupid little elven eyes aren't going to do anyhting but gaze upon someone that doesn't even look like who I really am.

Is that so hard to destroy your perfect character, Aronthal? Or does he have to be so perfect he can look through a magical diguise?

Yes, I believe it is in me to dictate that your character isn't perfect.


Sounds to me as if it is you who is claiming to e perfect. Perhaps I do not tell by your appearance. Perhaps my wisdom and spot notices certain manerisms or gestures or patterns of speach. You don't have to be perfect to do that. You just have to be observant, hell poker players do it all the time!
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PostSun 04/20/03 7:08pm
You can be observant to find that my customs do not match Eleriina.

Why?

I'm from Neverwinter.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grusk wrote:
You can be observant to find that my customs do not match Eleriina.

Why?

I'm from Neverwinter.


I never said anything about your customs. Some people for example, (just an example not saying this is true for you) gesture alot when they talk, or they say um alot, or shift their stance or put their hands in their pockets, etc. Most communitcation in non verbal, and that is assuming that your magical disguise even masks your voice. And if it does mask your voice, how does it do it? Will it masks the vocal inflections, like how some people over emphaise or mispronounce certain words, will it disguise the way some people raise their pitch when exited or even in just asking a question? These are just a few example. Just how PERFECT is your disguise? And if you have a completely PERFECT disguise, how did you manage to come by it?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My diguise does mask my voice.

My diguise is perfect as far as a level 8 divine spell of the Trickery domain is concerned. Namely: Cleric of Mask see straight through.

The other limit to my diguise is me. My mind. I may well screw up, just because I look different doesn't mean my really old bad habits are going to die for a few days.

They aren't. Of course, in town, i'm careful as hell about all that. One elf called "Nomen" could probably rat me, pissed me off as Raiko and I slaughtered him just outside of Eleriina. But you didn't hear that. icon_lol.gif

Anyways, the disguise goes as far as I will allow my character to not be who he is. Which won't last forever, afterall, Xavier's true alignment is Lawful Evil. Not Lawful Neutral.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grusk wrote:
My diguise does mask my voice.

The other limit to my diguise is me. My mind. I may well screw up, just because I look different doesn't mean my really old bad habits are going to die for a few days.



I agree. Therefore unless you yourself were perfect, you would let things slip unconciously, and quite frequently. Body language being the hardest thing to disguise would require a great deal of training and practice that a spell alone would not provide you.

And I suspect that unless the spell actualy alters the words you are speaking and how you speak them, rather than just adjust the tone and pitch of your voice, then the spell would not be sufficient enough to mask vocal patterns. It would be sufficient to fool the non observant, it would be sufficient enough to fool the casual observer, but I am not so sure it would be, nor is it intended to be, sufficient enough to fool the observant in a prolonged conversation.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And it would also be sufficient to fool the one that doesn't know Xavier Dotson without the diguise.

Aronthal, your character, has never met Xavier Dotson without him calling himself Raiko Henflyer or Adrian Hart. There is no way he can know my name or anything about me, even if you figure out I am in disguise it doesn't mean you know who I am behind the mask.

That's not observant, that's tele-pathetic, or is it telepathic?

Also, the conversation at the inn where I was making fun of Nei and pretending to be drunk was not prolonged. You were observant in the short term conversation and knew who I was without even knowing who I am, or unless you know everything about me from using rogues that probably backfired, there really isn't a way you could have known me as Xavier Dotson.

EDIT: For the record, i'm not going to purposely slip up. I'll actually have to slip up as the player, and it will not be on purpose.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grusk wrote:
And it would also be sufficient to fool the one that doesn't know Xavier Dotson without the diguise.

Aronthal, your character, has never met Xavier Dotson without him calling himself Raiko Henflyer or Adrian Hart.


Wel actualy I have. But it is pre-wipe, and I never heard a concensus on how we were to roleplay that. Both of us chose to replay the same characters after the wipe. So I have met you before, and that meeting left a lasting impression on me.


Quote:

EDIT: For the record, i'm not going to purposely slip up. I'll actually have to slip up as the player, and it will not be on purpose.


Yes, but you have to account for unconcious slips. The game can't do your dusguise for you, rather you have to rp it. Likewise the game can't do your unconcious slips for you, so you have to do them yourself. IMHO
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hm-hm, so you're basically just asking me to slip so you can see right through my diguise.

Also, could you reaccount our character's pre-wipe meeting to me?

Nothing is ringing any bells ... PM if it's a long meeting, would be wise to not take up much more space on this thread.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is what i think....if anyone cares...hehe


A: party chat, is Defnined OOC or IC by the leader of party, or majority

b: it's hard to tell the difference when some one get's new armor or is being desgiused.....so i would go *is disguised*
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grusk wrote:
Hm-hm, so you're basically just asking me to slip so you can see right through my diguise.


No, I'm not asking you to intentionaly slip up. I'm asking you to recognize that your character is slipping up, wether you are doing it or not. And therefore there are things that observant characters can pick up on.

For example, my character is supposedly a living breathing person, so wether nwn does it for my character or not he still farts from time to time, even if I don't want him to icon_smile.gif

Quote:

Also, could you reaccount our character's pre-wipe meeting to me?


Nothing is ringing any bells ... PM if it's a long meeting, would be wise to not take up much more space on this thread.


I'll pm you shortly.

EDIT - Just for the record, I did PM Grusk, and we concluded that Aronthal has had a lengthy conversation .. with Xavier .. in the past.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*Sigh* You know, this is just going to go on and on, you claiming to see right through my diguise because you're "observant," or some crack like that. Then I will go on and on by saying it's simply not possible.

How about we just leave it next time Aronthal shows up and calls me Xavier, i'll smack you across the face and assure you that I am Raiko Henflyer.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grusk wrote:
*Sigh* You know, this is just going to go on and on, you claiming to see right through my diguise because you're "observant," or some crack like that. Then I will go on and on by saying it's simply not possible.

How about we just leave it next time Aronthal shows up and calls me Xavier, i'll smack you across the face and assure you that I am Raiko Henflyer.


If that is realy the last thing Xavier would like to do in this world, then all the power to him.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure is. His primary goal is to become the supreme dictator of Eleriina.

icon_twisted.gif MORE POWER TO ME!
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OOC---

Fine.


IC ---

Sounds good to me, I would not attack you unprovoked, but slapping me would certainly give me cause to usher you off to your masters domain. I would consider it on honor to do so.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And for the record ... Grusk is doing this Henflyer bit partly from something he started himself and partly because I saw the beauty of it and decided a well constructed and played villain had a role to play in the Neverwinter/Dyso saga. icon_smile.gif And, as DM, unless you can dispel it or see through it in the terms he's described, then I'm not going to say it was a legitimate breaching of his disguise.

Guess what ... while the "good guys" may win most of the time ... the bad guys always get the best lines and the juiciest parts. At least they do when I can appreciate the creativity they are putting into it. Grusk has afforded himself to assist in this building story and I appreciate him for that. People may think I can't stand evil characters ... but Grusk (and some others) knows I can do evil quite nicely. It's not that I hate evil characters ... I just hate evil characters who have no development at all ... they are "evil" simply because they think that means they can just kill anyone because they feel like it. Admittedly, there's "good" characters out there who seem to think the same thing .....

Regarding West's original points ... basically I see Tells as always OOC, party-talk as being either, depending ... and talk mode should almost always be IC unless there is some damn good reason for it not to be.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conrad Hollows wrote:

And, as DM, unless you can dispel it or see through it in the terms he's described, then I'm not going to say it was a legitimate breaching of his disguise.


And just for the record, I don't agree with that .. and I am not going to roleplay it that way. If you want to take the time to refute the points I have made instead of just making a blanket pronouncement, then I would be happy to admit I am wrong.

As for Xavier's role in current events, I agree entirely that he is doing a great job, and it is adding greatly to the story. Just don't be suprised if I show up at the hearnig with a mordekins disjunction or two and dispell his illusion if I think for a moment he is not acting unbiased.

EDIT - I edited an earlier post to reflect this .. but I know some people will miss it if they have already read that post. Grusk and I have concluded that Aronthal has had lengthy conversations in the past .. as Xavier.

SECOND EDIT - I also looked up polymorph self, and its use as a disguise. The spell only grants a +10 to the casters disguise check. Therefore it is not infallible. I did however find an interesting prestige class called Imposter .. it has some interesting abilities that enhance things such as polymorph self spells.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hehe, as for that Aronthal, you'll not be very liked by those present. You're interrupting the rolling of events and therefor trying to stop the trial by casting things on the judge, rather than helping it.

Namely: Cast it before for good results to the aftermath, cast it after to see me hanged. Otherwise, cast it to find yourself hanged for "attacking" a judge.

Also! This suggestion of M's Disjunction is actually OOC. So, if you use this OOC information to effect IC, you're not doing very good roleplay. Supposing, of course, you believe in the ethics of 'good' and 'bad' roleplay. Would be pretty poor to use information gained by OOC sources as IC actions.

icon_twisted.gif So cast away Aronthal, we'll be seeing eachother in hell if you do.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can play it however you want, and I'll DM it however I want. I can assure you that if your play gets in the way of my DMing, it won't stay in the way for long. icon_smile.gif

Yeah that was a pretty smug answer on my part, but after today, I'm feeling perhaps I need to be a bit more smug. Some folks seem to think the DMs are like their little pets or toys ... you push them around when you want something ... doesn't work that way.

I get one guy who dies in an event and feels it is totally acceptable to scream obscenities in party chat and then log off. He knows its an event, he knows a DM has got to be nearby, and still does it. I really dislike having to deal with complaints from other players who now are annoyed that so-and-so just went ballistic like that. Displays like that show a total disregard for the DMs as well as the players in your party.

Then, after the event is done, the party is trying to split up the loot and there's a crash ... and then another ... and another. Ends up the booty and xp was lost in the series of crashes. So I am making individual awards to folks to try to make up for it and someone else apparently hears talk of items getting handed out. He wants some good stuff for his class, there isn't enough in game ... I tell him that quest stuff happens all the time, but its hit or miss, you don't always catch a DM.

Then he's going to lecture me about how someone else has stuff he can use and he wants it and he wants some and when will it be available? I tell him again its quest stuff and I try to spread it around and do it with different items, etc. it's not always the same thing all the time or the same scenario. Well can he just buy it from me? No. Can't he just give me all his money (he apparently has millions already, go figure) for them? Answer is still no.

So he whines some more about what has this place got against his chosen class, and I tell him life isn't always fair ... but have been trying to stress that, in time, it does come around to you. So now he's gonna tell me this isn't life, forget the fairness, blah blah ... at that point I'd had enough so he got the nice DM kill and a lecture about my not needing or wanting to hear any more of his crying.

I try to be as fair and accomodating as I can humanly be out there. I try to make it so different folks can get involved in some things. While this was all going on, Y was doing his thing elsewhere and I think Kindo was working on something else somewhere else ... three DMs on, as it were. Nonethess it seems for some that nothing will be enough and basically, to them, they can pound sand because I honestly don't give a damn if they like it or not.

It's not so different from pencil and paper D&D! You can sit back and try to push and push and make your arguments about this and that to a DM all you like ... maybe they will agree, maybe they won't. When they say "no" that means they don't agree and that means you say "fine" and go about your business of playing. When you refuse to take no for an answer, you generally annoy the DM to the point where he's even less inclined to try to do anything for you. Keep on with the questioning and antics and the DM is doing to do more than tell you no, he's going to make an example out of you.

Suffice to say I have no qualms about making an example out of people, none at all. There's a lot of good players out there, but there's plenty of asses, too. I try not to waste my time too much on the asses, they rarely appreciate it and just cry about it when things don't go their way. If you feel you want to argue with a DM in game, feel free, just bear in mind that the DM almost always does get the last word. icon_smile.gif

"DM abuse! DM abuse! I lost a level! I got killed!" Makes me laugh when these bleating sheep cries come from some of the biggest so-called "bullies" around. Makes me enjoy their screams all the more, too. Who said I couldn't play evil? icon_mrgreen.gif
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough, as a dm you are entitled to interpret the rules as you see fit. Evn if those interpretations are wrong.

I have given ample arguments as to how I know Xavier, how one could see through his disguise, and I even posted information out of the players handbook that indicates disguises through polymorph self are far from infalible.

If you want to toss all of that aside, and say you are changing the rules because you like the outcome, that is certainly within your right to do so. But you could have also rp'd it so that he has some supernatural or some better than average ways of disguising himself, aid from neverwinter perhaps, or from cyric.

Or Xavier could have roleplayed it, by perhaps trying to bribe me or something.

Instead Grusk cries foul play, and a dm supports him just becuase it is good for the story. I have nothing against Conrad or Grusk, but I don't think this is a very unbiased pronouncement either.
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Grusk
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You even read that little bitty post up there Aronthal?

This entire conversation is ooc, cast M's Disjunction at your own discretion.

Also, if you really believe it's not very unbiased, prove it.

Get masses, support, rally, whatever. It all works, do it all the time myself.
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Nei
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really see what difference it makes. It doesn't really effect your character at all to know whether it is Xavier or Raiko, at least not from what you told me last night, it's not detrimental to your character's primary motivation. Sometimes it's good to bend the rules a bit for the story. I'm quite interested to see this play out as a player. I just hope I'm able to be at the trial, if it will be open to the public. Anywho I'd just say drop it, and move on, I don't much see the point of fighting it.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can give you ample reasons.

1. Aronthal has met Xavier. He knows he is evil, and he knows he has lest than honorable intentions for el. My character is perceptive, and he by nature want's to uphold balance. If my charcter is capable of penetrating the disguise (which according to the rules he can) and he recognized Xavier, how is he supposed to react?

2. Although I do not speak for Ali, (in fact I am fairly certain he would probably tell me to drop it as well) the outcome of this trial effects a good friend of mine as well as all of dyso. So again, if I were able to recognize Xavier for what he is, how should I react?

3. Rules exist for a reason. Bend them and it sets a precedent for misuse. For example .. Am I entitled to the same extraordinary disguise capabilities? If so, what is to stop me from disguising myslef as nei (yes polymorph can't change my height that much, but it is only an example) and commit some crimes as her? My disguise is PERFECT, so no one could possibly dispute that it was actualy nei commiting those crimes.

And one more time. This is roleplayable. Just because I know him for who he is, it does not mean he can't deny it, it certainly does not mean that I can persuade others that I am telling the truth.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2003 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aronthal, you continue the arguement?

Your arrogance is truely amazing. icon_razz.gif
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