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Aronthal
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grusk wrote:
Aronthal, you continue the arguement?

Your arrogance is truely amazing. icon_razz.gif


It is arrogant of me to stand up for something I think is wrong? Well then yes I am very arrogant. icon_lol.gif
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not_so_unique
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What the DM says, goes. That is always the final word. You can argue with a DM, but don't piss them off! They can make adventures hell for your character. That's just the way it is, and the way it must be.

Aronthal, regarding the +10 disguise check modifier associated with polymorph self, is that a spot check? Was it rolled before you announced that you recognized the person in disguise? Was there a DM present to verify the roll, or did you invite grusk into party (and perhaps an impartial observer) to verify the roll?

I understand your argument, Aronthal, but it seems that Conrad is telling us that Grusk's disguise is part of a plot line in an event that many(?) will be watching (from what I hear in game). Even if you did succeed the disguise check, or whatever, the DM still must retain the power to override when it is important to the plot.

DMs put in a lot of effort to keep things going. Give them a break now and again. It can really be a thankless task, though their objective is to provide enjoyment and benefit to as many characters as possible! But, of course, not everyone can be pleased!
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ShadowCore
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

What the DM says, goes. That is always the final word. You can argue with a DM, but don't piss them off! They can make adventures hell for your character. That's just the way it is, and the way it must be

That is something I don't agree upon, where have you been spending your time? IN some kind of dicator like MOD? DMs are here to make your time beautifuyl, not to ruin it. I believe that if any DMis caught doing that, he will be fired. A DM may NOT use his or her powers to exact vengeance, EVER. It's very simple, they are here to make this a beautiful place, not a place where you have to be frightened for everyone.
Quote:

DMs put in a lot of effort to keep things going. Give them a break now and again. It can really be a thankless task, though their objective is to provide enjoyment and benefit to as many characters as possible! But, of course, not everyone can be pleased!

No it isn't, everyone here loves the DMs, and the DMs are wonderful. Something I do agree on, is that if a DM makes a stroyline, you shouldn't complain that it sucks, because you can never see the entire story. You may disagree or argue with a DM about the way he is handling things(such as Dark-Strike does it, he apparently summons uber-1337 monsters and kills people, but anyway), but you should NEVER argue about a storyline, since you don't know the story, even if you think you do.
Quote:

Rules exist for a reason. Bend them and it sets a precedent for misuse. For example .. Am I entitled to the same extraordinary disguise capabilities? If so, what is to stop me from disguising myslef as nei (yes polymorph can't change my height that much, but it is only an example) and commit some crimes as her? My disguise is PERFECT, so no one could possibly dispute that it was actualy nei commiting those crimes.

Yes, rules exist for a reason, but if there is one thing I learned from PnP, is that rules can and should be bent if they don't make sense or don't help out in any way. If a DM is a total rule-freak who doesn't care what happens, as long as it is in the rules, there is no fun to the game, and most of the time will be spent arguing over things like this. It may very well be that you have seen throught the polymorph self, but please for the good of the story and the MOD, let it go, and just think you rolled a 1 on a check or something. PLEASE, the effect on your character isn't that big at all, and you will probably have a more interesting time if you let it go.
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not_so_unique
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um, I have been spending my time in Dysotopia (and with PnP as a long-time DM since First Edition).

Da' DM rules. Period. A GOOD DM will listen to arguments objectively and not make it miserable for your character if you disagree with their "objective decisions." But if you continue to badger the DM with insults or whatever, you might as well leave the game or expect your charcter to get wiped in a hurry so the other players can get on with it. An overcomplaining player ruins it for everyone else.

DMs are NEVER appreciated by EVERYONE. Not evn on Dysotopia... I read the Forum.

Thanks for your input. I am really pretty new to NWN (just bought it a month ago) and Dysotopia is the only module I've tried online. So far, I have no reason to want to go anywahere else! Good job admins, designers, DMs, Mods, and PLAYERS!
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Aronthal
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I was hoping for was a .. yep your right .. but for the sake of the story we are bending the rules .. and here is some ooc (but still rp) reasons why his disguise is impeneterable, so that this could not be a precident for future misuse.

I have DM'd allot in the past, and I was considered to be a very good dm, I am fully aware that it is a mostly underappreciated job. I'm just saying that with everyone pushing so hard for roleplaying (and please keep pushing) that this could have been explained in rp terms without jumping down my throat.

My interpretation of the rules is correct, and simply put Grusk's is not. Now if Conrad wants to rp why this is a special case .. then I am all for it.

And that, I am sure to the relief of many, is my last word. icon_smile.gif
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gaea106
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 8:04 pm    Post subject: Please Reply with quote

I am dumbfounded. Conrad has been putting on some of the greatest and most elaborate, time-consuming DM events I have ever seen. Is this what he gets in response? Un-real.

For the event to be fun and interesting for everyone one person is in control and calling all the shots. That would be Conrad the DM. Just like he said, if you don't like it then stop participating in his event. Just like PnP, if you don't like the DM's style then don't be a player in his game.

GEEZ
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Aronthal
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My God, is there anyone on these forums that can actualy ever admit to being wrong? Is there anyone that can offer constructive criticism. Is there anyone that can even offer a constructive argument .. instead of I like it this way I have the IQ and common sense of a dog and if you don't like it .. I am to stubborn and obstinate and a royal pain in the ass, so don't even try to have an intelignet debate with me?

Please, there has to be someone here that has an IQ higher than a brain dead ostrich. icon_evil.gif
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gaea106
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 8:46 pm    Post subject: Debate Reply with quote

My IQ is just fine, thanks. I am just really frustrated.

I would agree with you on the point of someone eventually recognizing Xiaver, because my character knows him well also. However much we "debate" about it the point is that Conrad wants Xaiver to continue playing the role for now because he thinks everyone is having fun and Conrad has something in mind.

And as for right or wrong this is subjective and up for opinion. NWN is "based" on third edition rules. It is not strict, and because of it's nature and the fact that events like this are lead by DM's with their own "house rules" there is no "right or wrong". You can "debate" anything and everything. Some people find debate fun, challenging even, others find that it only pisses them off.

The reason I am frustrated and posted my earlier message is because I have not seen a single event, no matter how well done, where there has not been some conflict or riffle about it. You will be hard pressed to find as many posts on positive feedback for events as you do problems and criticism.

I would love to come on to the forums one day and see an elaborate, intelligent description and discussion on the events taking place with positive feedback. Or better yet, elaborate In Character posts about current events. Lately there has been quite a bit of this on the In Character forum and it is beautiful to behold.

All of this is for fun, for everyone including the DMs. They do it because they enjoy it. If all they receive in return is argument, debate, and criticism I have to wonder if it will all continue.

If you would like to debate about something In Character, please do so. I would love it. This is just about one of the longest OOC posts I have made in a long time...
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not_so_unique
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aronthal, in understanding the human need for personal vindication, I attmepted to offer constructive criticism in my first post:

Quote:

Aronthal, regarding the +10 disguise check modifier associated with polymorph self, is that a spot check? Was it rolled before you announced that you recognized the person in disguise? Was there a DM present to verify the roll, or did you invite grusk into party (and perhaps an impartial observer) to verify the roll?


I have never heard of making a spot check to identify someone disguised by polymorph, as that would require you to "naturally" see their true form through "magic," which I thought spot had absolutely nothing to do with. Going on your word though, I am still not certain what ability you would roll against as that is not stated in your previous posts (or I overlooked it) and I haven't taken the time to look it up and verify what you read for my own sake. But then, it is a moot point in this circumstance, except of course "for the record."

Anyway, I hope you can still derive some RP enjoyment from what Conrad has in store. I for one am clueless, but then my character has absolutely no political ambition being a stupid half-orc and all!!! Gotta love it!!!
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Aronthal
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand your frustration, and to a large extent I agree with you on it. And just for the record when a majority of these post were made I had no idea that Xavier's disguise was part of an event. To the best of my knowledge, and I could deffinitely be wrong, his disguise (one of them at least) predates the event in question. And finaly when I saw through Xaviers disguise, which prompted this whole discussion, it was at the el inn, and to my knowledge nothing event-like was going on then, but I could be wrong because I didn't even know about his involvement at the time.
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Aronthal
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

not_so_unique wrote:
Aronthal, in understanding the human need for personal vindication, I attmepted to offer constructive criticism in my first post:


I'm sorry, my blanket statement was too encompasing. You most certainly did and continue to offer constructive criticism.

The +10 to disguise comes from the players handbook description of the polymorph spell itself. Given that nwn does not have the disguise skill I am not certain how it would be handled. My assumption was that since the disguise is meta game, the spot must be meta game as well.


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gaea106
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:03 pm    Post subject: Ok Reply with quote

Ok, cool. Well I think Grusk is continusly maintaining the disguise until the event is complete and at an end. He isn't playing as the real Xavier as far as I know until it's done. This event has been going on for weeks and is very elaborate. Conrad comes on several times a week and has rather lengthy sessions on this event.
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not_so_unique
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gaea106 says:

Quote:

The reason I am frustrated and posted my earlier message is because I have not seen a single event, no matter how well done, where there has not been some conflict or riffle about it. You will be hard pressed to find as many posts on positive feedback for events as you do problems and criticism.


Do not be discouraged by complainers. Not everyone can be happy with the outcome of every event. Someone will always feel overlooked or cheated. It is inevitable considering how many players visit Dysoptopia. Besides, it is human nature to complain in an official capacity more so than to praise. Anger and frustration bring on natural human emotions that increase our adrenaline and motivate us to "act." We don't get that same type of rush when we are happy. Ever notice there are only "complaint" departments in businesses (though now they call it customer feedback) instead of "praise" departments?
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gaea106
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:27 pm    Post subject: Hahaha Reply with quote

*has a really good chuckle*

Thanks for bringing me back to reality! I just finished writing new software for my company to handle "complaints". A huge part of the project was making it more PC. I named it the Customer C.A.R.E. System. The whole company loves it from CEO down! (Wish I had of Service Marked it!)

It means:

Customer

Corrective
Action
Reporting
&
Evaluation

System
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not_so_unique
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

The +10 to disguise comes from the players handbook description of the polymorph spell itself. Given that nwn does not have the disguise skill I am not certain how it would be handled. My assumption was that since the disguise is meta game, the spot must be meta game as well.


Then it is a difficult point to resolve with technicality. I am trying to recall 1st and 2nd edition rules (without the books in front of me). If I recall, there was little, if any mention made of it. I always DM'ed disguises as "they will work as long as I say they will work," and then I would try to use discretion regarding an encounter with a long-time companion, etc. But that is a metagame approach as well.

On a side note, I would suspect it will soon get old for Grusk to continue compromising his character's true identity. It must be hard at times to maintain that, especially when the little floaty thing over his head says he is someone else! Imagine how many times he's had to go out of character to explain... must get old after awhile.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:32 pm    Post subject: Great job Reply with quote

I agree on that point. It is taking a lot of role-play for everyone involved to keep that disguise up. Knowing Conrad, he is probably enjoying that irony more than anything else. The fact that everyone is working so hard at remaining IC and role-playing all of this is immensely satisfying.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2003 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gaea106, I like the acronym! Very marketable!

It's really no wonder companies are using PCs to take customer "complaints" these days! I have been on the receiving end of complaints, er, customer service before... it is REALLY difficult not to get embroiled!

Also a good point that other players are challenged to role play through this as well. I just wish I (not necessarily my character, as if he'd care) knew what is going on!

*I really hope I don't get a spam mark for this... oops.*
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will throw this out there, however ... just for wrinkles and giggles ... icon_smile.gif

Grusk is detailing the use of a spell/ability which is not supported by the game engine currently, but is in D&D itself. This is a somewhat hairy sticky issue since you get into a debate between what is D&D and what is the NWN game and what happens when one doesn't fit the other nicely. In this case, the "secret ID" idea essentially gets its support by the graces and resolve of the players around supporting the illusion of it. It only takes one person to say "that's not the name over your head, you're lying" to ruin it.

The debate could rage on and on forever over just what should happen when a player wants to use something from D&D rules that is not supported in the NWN Aurora engine. Play with it, play around it, say it's not possible ... points could be made in each direction with various degrees of credibility and all could be right. Point being is it tends to be something that comes down to whether there is a DM there overseeing something ... and does the DM decide you saw what you say you saw or not. This is really no different from pencil and paper D&D ... at least when I am paper-DMing because I do all the rolls and players don't get to "quote the PHB and DMG" to me. Those who give me the "well page 24 says this and you just did that!" Un-uh ... doesn't fly ... what I decide happens will happen, that's that ... that's what the DM does. Without the DM there, it falls back to either the players involved agreeing on it or, barring that, then the NWN engine is the only thing that decides what can and cannot be done.

In a somewhat related example, I had someone a few weeks back ask me during an event if their Paladin character could detect evil on the NPC they were talking to. I told him he could detect, but the process of doing so would require him to pause and mediate a bit, which the NPC might take offense to in the middle of their talk. Player went back to talking and after more dialogue decided to do it and I told him that the NPC was indeed giving off an evil aura. The player then decided after more talk, and the NPC getting annoyed with him "What are you doing? Did you just go comatose?!", that he didn't trust the NPC and walked off to other things.
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PostTue 04/22/03 12:28am
*Grins from ear to ear*

"And just that!!"
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