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Multiclassing
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Kindo
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 11:58 am    Post subject: Multiclassing Reply with quote

It would be wise to continue this discussion in a thread of its own. Basically about some guys wanting restrictions and certain rules on multiclassing. Here's what's on so far:

Griff Inn wrote:
I'd like to suggest an addition to these rules:

It's been discussed in other threads, and I think there should be some official rule on multiclassing.

A lot of people choose multiclass combos that are just too powergamy to understand the RP concept of - the biggest example being the sorcerer/paladin combo. This combo should be banned outright - there's no valid RP excuse for it, it's too obscure. Though there aren't many players doing this now, so it's not much of a problem.

Another thing that really gets on my nerves is players who 19/1 level (or thereabouts). "I trained initially as X, but then after my first season I changed my mind to Y" is not a valid RP excuse for powerplay. I notice that some players are trying to make up a big BS story of how they have 1 or 2 levels of a certain class in a desperate attempt to cover up their powergaming. It's not cool, it's totally lame, and you won't grow a bigger penis for doing it, so don't bother trying. If you truly wish to multiclass, then take at least 5 levels of that class.

Perhaps the above is too much for players - it doesn't fit in with their powergaming ideas. But the next thing should definately be monitored. One of the reasons why players 19/1 level is to save up skill points, then when they get to level 20 they take 1 level of the other and spend all the skill points on that class. This is not allowed by the rules, and should not be allowed in dyso. I even once had a 19/1 wiz/rogue that saved up skill points, but not when I realised it wasn't allowed. the maximum number of skill ranks you are allowed in your class is the class level +3. No one should take anymore than that.

Good RP multiclasses to me are druid/rangers and also paladin/clerics. Fighters and Rogues generally make good multiclasses with most others in terms of RP, but as I said, show you're serious about that class by taking at least 5 levels.

Anyway that's what I suggest. I hope some multiclassing rule is passed to stop power/metagaming, it gets really annoying when I see 19/1, 18/1/1 or 17/2/1 characters on the server, obviously with the only intention of powergaming.

Griff


Kindo wrote:
As y'all might know I am totally against this lametardian multiclass strategy, so I back this suggestions fully. I get just as frustrated as Griff when I see some craptardish powerlamer with levels along the lines 19/1 or 18/1/1 etc. Not much to add really, Griff explained it quite well.

Also the skillstacking or whatever you call it, SHOULD be forbidden. No point in discussing. It's a bug, and should be prohibited to exploit just like all the other exploits we already banned.


Conrad Hollows wrote:
I have to admit that I tend to think that if you're not gonna take at least 3 levels in a class, you shouldn't take it in the first place. That said ... I'd have to think about repercussions and all that for doing so.


guitarrML wrote:
Ok, I'll make this quick as it's not meant to be a full out response, but rather my two cents.

I will start by saying this is the first rpg that I have played, so I don't have a wealth of experience on the topic, but a lot of the best ideas/views come from those that don't have said experience.

Ok, from what I understand a role-playing game is one in which you assume that you ARE your character....to that end I don't understand the not allowing 1 or 2 levels of another class. My reason for saying that is this....one of my characters is a Cleric. Ok, so I have taken 1 level of fighter. OMG, I must be a powergamer. I see it quite the opposite when assuming the role of my character. My character has studied one season of the fighting arts for 2 reasons: 1) He wants to gain a little more knowledge about fighting, as he doesn't feel he knows as much as he would like to know, and 2) he wants to better understand those fighters he may come up against while representing is diety's beliefs in the land of Dyso.

Now, tell me why that is not a valid rp reason for one level of fighter? Now maybe there is some hardcore D&D rule that states that is not a valid rp reason, but I say "who cares". This is not D&D.......it is based loosely on it (from what I can see and what friends of mine who have D&D experience say) and that is it.

I totally understand this is not my module and I of course will not flame administration for any changes they make. As Conrad has mentioned before, as a player I can just leave, as that is my right, just like making the module whatever they want is their right. Completely understood. I just don't think this whole you must take x many levels in a second class if you multiclass is as well thought out as some people may think.

Sure there are people that do the 19 fighter/1 rogue to get the use magic ability, etc., but there will ALWAYS be those who will exploit things in game.....pass this multi-classing restriction and someone will find something else to exploit that people won't be happy about. Where do you draw the line and just let people play the game?


Kindo wrote:
Why did you take that fighter level? Surely you didn't think "Hey, my character can have studied fighting ONE season. That'd be cool." Surely, it was some feat or skill or whatever that made you come up with that decision. Right?

And that RP excuse you come up with...everyone can come up with some half-assed excuse to take that PG multiclass level.


Aronthal wrote:
Well I am totaly against restricting multiclassing. As for me, my character is currently 7/5/5 so my position does not come from the fact that I personaly want to "exploit" a multiclass combination.

The argument against "lame" reasons for taking, for example, a single level of fighter, are in themselves lame. I would argue that for many, the same reasons exist for choosing your primary class in the first place, i.e.

1) I want a particular skill or feat
2) I want to be able to cast spells
3) I want to be able to turn undead
4) I want to be able to join the OSB
etc.

How is that so much different than saying:

1) I would like to improve my characters fighting abilities
2) I woul like to add spell casting to my arsenal
3) I would like to be able to use magic devices
4) I want to get some extra hit points so that I can be tougher in battle
etc.


Lighten up, its a game, if people want to take a single level of something how is it hurting anyone else? Most people that argue against certain class combinations do it because they don't like the advantages the character gains in pvp. If this is your primary motivation, than perhaps you are on the wrong server?

I say, pick your battles and this one is certainly not worth fighting.


Kindo wrote:
Rock on! You know, there you go with the excuses. You know, you can have those exact explanations of your character, but you can have FIVE instead of just ONE level in the class. And it wouldn't be lame anymore. Woohoo! Rejoice! Seriously, there's a lot of people who just don't get it.


Aronthal wrote:
Kindo wrote:
Rock on! You know, there you go with the excuses. You know, you can have those exact explanations of your character, but you can have FIVE instead of just ONE level in the class. And it wouldn't be lame anymore. Woohoo! Rejoice! Seriously, there's a lot of people who just don't get it. icon_rolleyes.gif


Well count me amongst them I guess.

Unless you are worried about getting your butt stomped in el north by some particular multiclass combination (which again you might be on the wrong server if you are) than I can't see why someone taking a level of thief ruins your gaming experience. I (my charcter) likes to wear black, does the cliche of a black clad monk ruin your gaming fun? Should we outlaw that?

Kindo, what type of character do you play? What is your justification for picking the class(es) that you did? If it is a carry over from 2.x .. why did you origanly pick what you did? Whatever your reasoning was I am sure I can pick it apart just the same as you are trying to pick others apart.


Kindo wrote:
I am not against multiclassing because it "ruins my gaming experience". It's just this personal thing, it irritates the crap out of me to see someone powergame like that. 1 level of rogue simply to get that sneak attack, or skill points in PP or UMD for example...they dont' care ONE BIT about the characteristics of the whole thing. They just want the power. Just aswell the reason for picking one level of fighter, one thing I know of is Weapon Specialization. Only fighters can have that, so some guys take 1 level of fighter simply because of that feat. THAT's not a choice that is justified by your character. It's you as a player who wants to be more powerful. And any excuses you make up to justify it as an IC action...tsk tsk.


Uin wrote:
Kindo wrote:
Rock on! You know, there you go with the excuses. You know, you can have those exact explanations of your character, but you can have FIVE instead of just ONE level in the class. And it wouldn't be lame anymore. Woohoo! Rejoice! Seriously, there's a lot of people who just don't get it. icon_rolleyes.gif


Kindo the problem is your not recognising that NWN and 3rd Ed are made for multiclassing and they are all perfectly valid excuses.

Oh and weapon spec is justiofied for most chars, isn'tthere a weapon that everyone prefers using above all other. Hmmm... does that mean you "specialise" in it? I'm sure a barbarian would be attached and specialised in using its Greataxe just as much as a fighter with its bastard sword.


Kindo wrote:
Then take freaking FIVE levels instead of just ONE. Oke? Otherwise, you're just making up excuses.

Oh, and man man...Barbarian and Fighter are compatible. Those two classes multiclassed make sense. But not with just ONE level in the other. Seriously, atleast 3 if they are compatible. Prefarably 5. That way you know you're serious.


ShadowCore wrote:
I support Kindo here. Come on people, since this is an RP server, you are supposed to RP everything. You can't RP that you have one level of anything, it's virtually impossible. No single character would ever think " Hey, I need to get better with my sword, so I'll just train for a week(ie. one level) and then cut it out, because I never need to train again for it. Screw that, it's stupid. This is RP, so RP.

And Uin, you sicken me, you are a powergaming non-rping little ass who can't be nice to people. You think you know everything and that you are the best, well, screw that. You aren't the best and you don't know everything. I can't help it that you powergame. I won't do anything against it, but PLEASE don't encourage it to others. This place is bad enough as it is, wuithout having you making it even more action oriented. This is supposed to be made a Roleplay server, it's fine that you want action, but you should visit an action server for that.....

Now, that was my little rant against Uin, please, if you multiclass, take at least thopse five levels, it could never make sense otherwise. As I said, if you want action and to be the best, go somewhere else!!!!!


Griff Inn wrote:
Kindo and Shadowcore have been getting the message across pretty well while I've been asleep. You take 1 level of a certain class and it's so blatantly obvious that you only want that level for a feat that it's powergaming. Whether it's a fighter for the weapon spec, monk for the wisdom ac bonus and evasion, ranger for dual wield, or rogue to fill your stashed skill points for UMD. At the end of the day there's no excuse valid enough for anyone to believe that it was for an RP reason. It's powergaming and that's the end of it. And powergaming is not wanted here. There are infinately many action servers for that.

Multiclassing is fine as long as you take enough levels of the class for everyone to believe you are sincere about roleplaying that class and not powergaming. To me that's about 5 levels.

Griff


Falkhor wrote:
Monk 19/Ranger1:"I'm a monk who used to climb trees".
Palladin19/Rogue1:"Juuuust when I was about to reach enlightenment I said to myself what the hell I wanna rob people too".
Fighter 19/Wizard 1:" One day this panther just followed me home".
Sorceror 19/Monk 1:"I was such a geek as a student i took up boxing lessons".


Uin wrote:
Actually, Paladins are allowed to multi with Runder certain deities, so they can be paladin scouts.


Uin wrote:
You can be perfeclty sincere about roleplaying and take just 1, 2 or 3 lvls of a class. I think this is infinging on player freedom too much, fine when its to improve the mod, but not so fine when it no longer improves the mod just to make consetions to the RP nazis.


Last edited by Kindo on Mon May 12, 2003 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total
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Kindo
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, my first question to those of you out there that take only 1 or 2 levels in the a class, is:
What was your reason for only grabbing one level? Why did you stop after just one level? Honestly now.


Last edited by Kindo on Mon May 12, 2003 12:14 pm, edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PS: Kindo, I pity you f00'!

And what I said eariler that kindo missed out!!!:

Quote:

You can be perfectly sincere about roleplaying and take just 1, 2 or 3 lvls of a class. I think this is infinging on player freedom too much, fine when its to improve the mod, but not so fine when it no longer improves the mod just to make consetions to the RP nazis.

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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes yes, sorry. Wasn't intentional. Fixed it now. Back on topic.

Kindo wrote:
Now, my first question to those of you out there that take only 1 or 2 levels in a class, is:
What was your reason for only grabbing one level? Why did you stop after just one level? Honestly now.
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Examples...

Sirris Aran: Paladins without discapline die very quick, although she does have 4 lvls of fighter she does stack skill points, she'd otherwise be dead if she didn't. This is a fault in NWN, there is no other way to avoid knockdown, such as opposed atk rolls like PnP, theres 1 way to avoid it and its not no all the frontline melee classes. Pure madness on Bios part.

Cleo Mataxis: 2 lvls of fighter, because she wanted to specialise in Greataxes. My explanation is above somewhere. She loves her greataxe, so why can't she specialise in it? No skill point stacking involved.
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the paladin + discipline: Seemingly, paladins aren't supposed to be exceptionally good at discipline. Not class skill, so you have to pay double skillpoints in it. Right? So you have to freaking deal with teh fact that your pally can be knocked down more easily than a fighter, and not start cheating/exploit in order to bypass it.

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Griff Inn
PostMon 05/12/03 12:29pm
No, because YOU (player, not char) wanted to have +1 on your attack bonus. *sigh* perfectionist powergamers.

Griff
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Griff Inn
PostMon 05/12/03 12:30pm
Paladins don't have discipline as a class skill, deal with it.

Griff
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't get it Kindo. Paladins and Fighters are supposed to be excellent fighters, the fact that paladin is less than half as good as a fighter does not make sense and is wrong. A pally having half discapline on a crossclass skill does not protect you in the slightest from knockdown or disarm. Where the hell in the pally description does it say. "holy fighter that can't stand up or hold his weapon in his hands"?
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hm, as much as I'm against exploiting multiclass combos:

Discipline as class skill of Fighter, Barbarian and Bard, but not for Paladins or Monks makes absolutely no sense to me. I see no reason why a pansy bard icon_mrgreen.gif should be able to avoid knockdown/disarm... better than a Paladin, who's trained to fight evil...
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the ultimate in powergaming build. He is level 9, all bard.

STR 10
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 15->17
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lmao...okey do i feel stupid...

Well i was going for lvl 2 pala and lvl 18 cleric ,but after seeing this i found out that i want something more for my char...the i started thinking...and the only thing i want is alittle more pally and i want a pixie...

But i understand from reading this that getting a pixie just for having one would be kinda lame...although...it could be my spell training has finally kicked inn and i've learned a few things aswell as i've got a familliar

no...that just lame
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an excellent discussion, but you know what? The people who support any and all multiclass combinations because they say it's a game are totally right.

You know why, don't you? I mean, come one, you people who say "This is a Role Playing game, so if you just pick 1 class for a skill or feat, etc., then you're not really Role Playing," are pointing out the very reason WHY any and all combinations work:

IF YOU CAN ROLE PLAY IT GOOD, IT IS VALID.

Yes, people who take 1 level of Rogue and then the rest in Monk just to get a bunch of skill points, a Sneak Attack, or whatever, and they play only as a Monk are powergaming at least a little if not totally. But if I do that, my story is that I was brought up an urchin on the streets, and was a jack-of-all-trades and was about to become a serious threat to Lawful citizens, until I stole from a rich merchant who stayed my execution by making me promise that I would go and live in the local Monestary, and that changed my life.

This is *NOT* and 'excuse'. It's called Role Playing. I'm playing the role of a character that I made up, staying true to the roots of the character when I can/should, and developing him further later on in the game. Maybe once I get 10 levels of Monk under my belt, I'll do the rest in Ranger or Druid, because after leaving the monestary and travelling for awhile, I've become very close to Nature, and decided to worship that instead of my Monkly teachings.

Is this unlikely? Sure it is. But if someone is creative enough, anything is possible, because there are a TON of people in the world and therefore a TON of reasons why they may only take 1 or 2 or whatever "seasons" of a certain "class". Stop being so close minded, and focus your energy on the people who truly powergame: those who care nothing for the other people in the game, they're just out to further their own ends for OOC reasons. The ones not there to Role Play in any sense of the word.
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, like it's been said...it's easy to make up an RP excuse. And it's all nice and dandy that people have creative minds. But that doesn't change the fact that you took that single rogue level simply to get those freaking skills or that damned sneak attack. You don't start with saying "Hey, I need a cool story. Let's say he was brought up an urchin on the streets. That'd be a nice story and add some depth to my character." No, you thought as a player "Damn, I want those rogue skills. They totally pwn! But heck, I don't want to be called a powergamer. Have to think of an RP excuse first. Hmm...I got it! I was an urchin on the streets earlier in life."

And this, my friends, is the whole point.
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not a bloody excuse. It's a way to ROLE PLAY.

Dammit, Kindo, if they didn't want people to be able to mix a bunch of these classes together in ways that you and yours hate so much, then they would have made the D&D system so you *couldn't* do it. And they DID do this to a certain extent. For Example, you can't have a Barbarian who then becomes a Paladin due to Alignment restrictions.

You are trying to take some of the fun out of the game. Like I said in another post, hell YES I took the 1 level of Rogue just for the skills or whatever, but that's NOT the point. The POINT is whether I do that and THEN I powergame by abusing those skills, or if I actually ROLE PLAY my character.

I just had an epiphany:

ROLE PLAYING and POWERGAMING are NOT how you DESIGN your character!!!!!

THEY'RE HOW YOU ***PLAY THE GAME***.

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PostMon 05/12/03 2:09pm
I agree. The proof is in the playstyle, not the character creation.  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maelstrom696969 wrote:
It's not a bloody excuse. It's a way to ROLE PLAY.

Dammit, Kindo, if they didn't want people to be able to mix a bunch of these classes together in ways that you and yours hate so much, then they would have made the D&D system so you *couldn't* do it. And they DID do this to a certain extent. For Example, you can't have a Barbarian who then becomes a Paladin due to Alignment restrictions.

You are trying to take some of the fun out of the game. Like I said in another post, hell YES I took the 1 level of Rogue just for the skills or whatever, but that's NOT the point. The POINT is whether I do that and THEN I powergame by abusing those skills, or if I actually ROLE PLAY my character.

If you just took one level in rogue, and put 4 skillpoints in the rogue skills, fine.
But if you used the 1 rogue level to put stacked skillpoints into UMD and whatnot, there's no way not to use that char for powergaming, cause everytime you use on of your skills, you're exploiting a biobug.
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, unfortunately from my experience in many things multiclassing is not as glorious as you think, instead of maxing out skills and stuff, just play a straight class, in the long run you will be much more powerful instead of having a little sneak attack for extra damage or some magic device to use scrolls, mostly because if you do you can be much better later on when you have gotten all the stuff required to make your class great, without having to max out everything from every different class....
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well it appears that Maelstrom can say what I meant to say way better than I did. I will just leave you with a couple of quotes from the NWN manual. To me they basically would say to Kindo "loosen up man, it's a game".

"There is a great deal of room for customization, so this may seem a little intimidating at first. It is best to remember that there are no good or bad characters, and different people appreciate different aspects of the game. You can create any number of characters, so feel free to experiment."


"Remember, much of the fun of Dungeons & Dragons is in watching your character grow and change."
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oookay...the NWN manual. Written by BioWare? The makers of this game, where they screwed up and crapped so many original rules, in order to make it more like the powergame of powergames - Diablo 2? icon_wink.gif
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well this is dyso, not AD&D, and dyso does not want powergamers.

There are two types of 19/1 (or similar) multiclassers. Some players do take 1-2 levels in a multiclass for a genuine roleplay reason. For example, a fellow charismatic player in game inspired someone to take a level in that class after an event or after days/weeks of adventuring with them. These players are the only ones who will be slightly harmed by this rule. However, players like this are few and far between. Most players think to themselves "Right, if I take this level then I'll get a better feat so I can become uber. Now all I have to do is think up a roleplay reason for it and everything will be dandy. No one could dare accuse me of powergaming because of my super roleplay reason for it."

Unfortunately it is difficult to tell these two types apart. So there are 2 options:

1. Let everything continue as is, and let these powergamers continue to make "l33t uber tanks" with their multiclassing and/or skill point stacking ways.

2. Force everyone to take at least 3-5 levels of that class in order to stop these powermetagamers. Sure this will harm a few genuine 19/1 roleplayers, but letís face it, there are very few of them to harm. And after a bit of whining theyíll get over it.

Dyso has had a few things implemented where Iíve thought ďNow that is a terrible ideaĒ, but Iíve given it a chance and eventually got used to it, and in most cases come to like the idea. So Iím saying give this rule a chance, I think it will do more good than harm.

Griff
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Jon316
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said and well pointed out, seems everyone likes to take something to be uber then simply makes up an RP reason for it, that's sorta weak, heck if you travel with someone IC you SHOULD be learning some of their skills and maybe even their classes...
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ShadowCore
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed Jon and Griff. You may use an RP excuse to powergame, but that's all it is, an EXCUSE... It is not a REASON.

As for maelstroms point of view, I can see where you are coming from, but I will have a really difficult time believing a 19sorceror/1paladin guy, or generally anyone with but 1 level. It is almost always so that a character will get multiple levels in a class. People don't go about and think "I'm a thief, and I've been killing this long with my little short sword, I think I should train so that I get better with it, but I'll stop, because I want to get back to thieving." They think "You know, I may use my short sword a lot, but since I sneak and barely get noticed, and I'm already quite comfortable with the weapon, why should I train for a year?"

It's almost ALWAYS lame to take only one level, if you do it to RP, you should take at least two levels. It may be cool to let them roleplay, but generally, they either don't roleplay, or do it as if they have fifteen levels of the secondary class...
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Y
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'll better use your time enjoying your self the way you like than teaching haw things should be to others..

if "I" like to take one level this just because it gives me that feature... well it is my concern not yours... If i use my char to spoil your fun then is is the DM/MOD concern not yours...
there are some basic guideline that I like to think are there for evryone best enjoyment.
but what some of you are asking is imo not wise
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ShadowCore
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not Y? I think it is. I know about the argument "Who cares, just play." Well, the entire problem with this thing is the illogicality of most characters made in such a way, and the fact that most people who do it, will turn out to use those powers to grief or will be unbeatable because the RPers didn't take the lame combination, therefore crippling RP.

It may be a MOD/DM concern when they do such a thing, but I can assure you, that enforcing this rule is a simple thing, and it is PROHIBITIVE. It is always better to stop something before it starts than to act after the act.

ANd even then, I must say that I don't trust one particular MOD in this case.........

And to quote you:
Quote:

did you know that you could get XP for free ?
Roleplay with each other and witness the XP rise by them self

That doesn't work, and certainly not if it is better to grab one class level to be more powerful and thus level faster..........

YOu should be stopping non-RP, not just encouraging RP itself.
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Ecusidor
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uhhh... actually before the wipe I had a mutliclass (Master Ecusidor) with 1 lvl of a certain class... Lvl 13 bard, lvl 3 sorcerer and lvl 1 thief... Now that character was hardly a powergaming character icon_rolleyes.gif
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Falkhor
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i agree with dreamin and kindo though, it is mostly the skill stacking that bothers me. Everyone knows it's a bug and still you're trying to defend doing it anyway. If you have one level of rogue and you put 4 points in use magic item sure, but stacking skillpoints is an exploit plain and simple.
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ShadowCore
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, Ecusidor, but you weren't a powergamer, and I think it's plainly obvious that the powergamers greatly outnumber the RPers how do this. SO, I say ban it, since the harm done to roleplayers is only minimal........

And the skillpoint stacking isn't the only problem, so is choosing monk or rogue or something similar for the great feats, or for other less obvious bonuses, but still without RP reasons. RP is a reason, not an excuse..
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

illogicality of most characters made in such a way, does NOT harm other player..
player harm other player regardless of haw there player is made.

anyways....
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plus it'll a nightmare to police.

Taking one lvl of anything is not lame. Taking one lvl of anything is allowed. Taking one lvl of anything lets you create the char you want. DnD is about characters, you want to curtail characters, then go ahead and ruin DnD if you want.
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