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Campaign Proposal
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Little Teapot
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2003 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dreamin' wrote:
Ya, make it easy to get to lvl 20 again, give away XP for free like in 2.x, and then we can all do some great RP again. Like all the superb rped wars in 2.x "w3 totally 0wn3d joo! I'mso uber! I'm the toughest fighter on the server! We're the strongest guild! Baa! Mine is longer than yours! My girlfriend is a jpeg!"
Honestly, one major effect of the new XP/leveling system is that a lot of players that I absolutely don't miss left Dyso, and I'm glad they did...

I'm sorry, but today I'm unusually blunt.

You're a dumbass.
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Matthijs says:
   oh ja, ik weet het zonet nog niet
Matthijs says:
   het ziet er toch wel een beetje naar uit dat we nederlands praten
Matthijs says:
   mischien moet ik dan maar eens vaker nederlands gaan praten
Matthijs says:
   kan je me ook meteen niet op al mijn spellinsfouten wijzen
There you have it! indisputable proof Solo's a fascist!!!
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Raven
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2003 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uin wrote:
This is a conversation I had eariler:

Matthijs says:
692,30769230769230769230769230769
Uin says:
.?
Matthijs says:
that's the number of high skeletall knights i needed to kill to get from 17 to 18
Uin says:
lol
Matthijs says:
that's absurd
Matthijs says:
692?!

DYSO IS NOT FUN!!!
ppl are calcuating kill numbers, ARHG!!!


I need 2735 Devrouers and Kobolds to get to lvl 20. I don't care. I RP and have fun, and when there's nothing, I go lvl. It's just a question of time. I just want to see if I have the tenacity to get there.


Last edited by Raven on Tue May 20, 2003 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total
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Uin
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2003 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dreamin'
Actually, no, thats just the crap player-base dyso had, you don't have to makes things extremely hard to get rid of them, the Management (thats not me) could have just decided to get tough.
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Little Teapot
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2003 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uin wrote:
the Management (thats not me) could have just decided to get tough.

because we all know, you're THE hardass icon_wink.gif

(edited for inaccurate information)
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Matthijs says:
   oh ja, ik weet het zonet nog niet
Matthijs says:
   het ziet er toch wel een beetje naar uit dat we nederlands praten
Matthijs says:
   mischien moet ik dan maar eens vaker nederlands gaan praten
Matthijs says:
   kan je me ook meteen niet op al mijn spellinsfouten wijzen
There you have it! indisputable proof Solo's a fascist!!!


Last edited by Little Teapot on Tue May 20, 2003 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total
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gaea106
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2003 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little Teapot wrote:
I'm sorry, but today I'm unusually blunt.

You're a dumbass.


Hooray for Little Teapot!
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Conrad Hollows wrote:
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Glorin
PostTue 05/20/03 10:51pm
raven seems to be the only one arguing his case....  Reply with quote
 
Raven
PostTue 05/20/03 11:05pm
Yes glorin, help ME, help YOU.  Reply with quote
 
dreamin'
PostTue 05/20/03 11:09pm
Better a dumbass than a teapot, and a little one too!  Reply with quote
 
Little Teapot
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2003 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I think I know what Uin's getting at.
Dyso currently caters to prettymuch only the Type 2 crowd, as explained in Gaea106's post. this is a problem, as it doesn't provide much fun for the other, probably majority of gamers on NWN. While those gamers are known as "outcasts of Diablo 2" by reputation, there are some type 1 characters that appriciate seeing some semblance of character progression without devoting 3 hours a day. Dysotopia has a system which allows for fast progression at low levels (if you can keep away from poisons and diseases in EVERY !@#$ leveling area)
but a gigantically slow high level exp system. it works out to normal with the NWN engine at around level 9. now then, since there are desirable players in the type 1 crowd, Uin claims that the current system is chasing them away due to difficulty shock (EI monsters start at CR 2, similar to CR 12 monsters at level 7) or once they reach level 15, where the exp system gets steep. since there's no discernable growth in character without putting in significant amounts of time, the players get discouraged and quit, or keep playing if they're type 2 (the masochists). there ARE "powergamers" in both crowds, so the "which group is superior" question was irrelavant. Uin argues that the administration of the module could have just banned the troublemakers, and gone on with life as people called "foul" but otherwise would be powerless, so they would essentially give up. this is true. also, dyso in 2.x was considered to easy, primarily because beyond levels there was only 1 other way to gain power, money. this wasn't acceptable, because after 1 week of work you had 15 million gold, the best armor and weapons the mod could buy. In dysotopia 3.x, the tradeskills were going to be the crowning achievement of all creation but they were suspended, apparently indefinitly. they extended the leveling system, prolonging the time until level 20 so players wouldn't whine about lack of secondary abilities to gain in the mod once they reached level 20.

this is the "too hard" argument.
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Matthijs says:
   oh ja, ik weet het zonet nog niet
Matthijs says:
   het ziet er toch wel een beetje naar uit dat we nederlands praten
Matthijs says:
   mischien moet ik dan maar eens vaker nederlands gaan praten
Matthijs says:
   kan je me ook meteen niet op al mijn spellinsfouten wijzen
There you have it! indisputable proof Solo's a fascist!!!
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Raven
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2003 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little Teapot wrote:
now then, since there are desirable players in the type 1 crowd, Uin claims that the current system is chasing them away due to difficulty shock (EI monsters start at CR 2, similar to CR 12 monsters at level 7) or once they reach level 15, where the exp system gets steep. since there's no discernable growth in character without putting in significant amounts of time, the players get discouraged and quit


Why quit? If they are really type 1 then RP is their main concern. At lvl 15, you can pretty much RP without much trouble. Type 1 also was described as "getting there that's important", so even with the steep xp loss per monster, it doesn't render the destination impossible. If the actaul obtention of lvl 20 is the goal, and without it, they simply quit, they wouldn't really be type 1. Nor type 2.
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PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2003 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I said to myself, never powergame again, i hate the "#/¤(&#(/ crypts and stuff, makes alot of headache, so i decided to ONLY RP to lvl 19 and 20..guess what..it doesn't work..at least not for me..I've been RPin like hell all the time now, and I have been awarded alot to, but not enough,i dont know, i got 2,5 k total for a week roughly only RPin, then I was showin a friend 'round in TQ, telling him what teqniques to use (i thougth i was safe..)..and then...a dragon comes..that was cool we actually (the 2 of us ) took down the dragon, cuz the lag was so bad ,the DM couldn't do anything, but then 1 min after, a kobold gets a lucky harm on me, and smack im dead...(and that was all the xp earned on rp (almost))

Im not whineing cuz i really am powerful enough, and i Luuuuuvvv playin Bere, but i hear bullshit that we are supposed to RP through last levels, and in my opinion that is impossible..The DM actually have to be around all the time..and that's the problem about that..end of story..I just dont get enough xp RP..But i will not walk around in the crypts again smackin skellies for xp, so i guess im stuck on 18...poor me.. icon_sad.gif
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Little Teapot
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven wrote:
Why quit? If they are really type 1 then RP is their main concern. At lvl 15, you can pretty much RP without much trouble. Type 1 also was described as "getting there that's important", so even with the steep xp loss per monster, it doesn't render the destination impossible. If the actaul obtention of lvl 20 is the goal, and without it, they simply quit, they wouldn't really be type 1. Nor type 2.

gaea106 wrote:
1) People that play games for fun. Never being able to achieve the highest level or "end" of the game is really frustrating for these people. They don't want to work to hard at getting to the "end", but will if it is fun all the way there.


Ok, Gaea states that type 1 wants to have fun along the way, and see some progression in their character while having that fun. (also that they want to see then end without working, which i disagree with, it was a quality stated in BOTH 1 and 2... kinda contradictory)In dyso these are mutually exclusive things (leveling and having fun), so the type 1 players can't really see progress in their character when they're leveling, and this results in them:
1) not having fun, as they aren't "Getting there" in their eyes*. If they aren't getting anywhere with their character, there's not much that they need to do to keep them busy. they get bored, and stop playing (ex: me)

I see your argument as a misstatement of Gaea's classing of players. the frustrating part about the end isn't really how i play, the two types of players i see are essentially what gaea stated, however I'll make some changes to the two player types on how *I* see it.

Type 1: this player plays for the fun of the game. They don't really care how the game is structured, as long as it's reasonably difficult, but not excessively so. they typically get into a game deeply based on the quality of the game, not on the challenge it represents. if they can do stuff that
is innovative or simply nice to look at, they will probably buy the game.
this type of gamer probably loses heart in final fantasy when they attempt to level up to 99 to beat emerald and ruby weapons.

Type 2: This player plays games for the challenge. if they can beat the game, they are worthy of doing so. if the game progresses in difficulty, they rise to meet it, even when it gets repetitive. If it has multiple levels of difficulty or is known to be hard, but worthwhile to beat, they will probably buy the game.
this type of gamer tries to attain level 99 and get all the secrets in Final Fantasy before, or after beating it, or in Halo tries to beat the game on "Legendary" over the course of months.

I think my classifications make more sense, so if not, screw you, I go by them icon_wink.gif.

*raven has a different view of "getting there", but he has identified himself as type 2 player, so it's irrelevant
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Matthijs says:
   oh ja, ik weet het zonet nog niet
Matthijs says:
   het ziet er toch wel een beetje naar uit dat we nederlands praten
Matthijs says:
   mischien moet ik dan maar eens vaker nederlands gaan praten
Matthijs says:
   kan je me ook meteen niet op al mijn spellinsfouten wijzen
There you have it! indisputable proof Solo's a fascist!!!
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gaea106
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven wrote:
Why quit? If they are really type 1 then RP is their main concern. At lvl 15, you can pretty much RP without much trouble. Type 1 also was described as "getting there that's important", so even with the steep xp loss per monster, it doesn't render the destination impossible. If the actaul obtention of lvl 20 is the goal, and without it, they simply quit, they wouldn't really be type 1. Nor type 2.


This is not correct. Roleplay is fun, but I would like the satisfaction of getting my character leveled as well. What I was saying was that I am not going to spend weeks doing nothing but mindlessly killing skellies and not having any fun to get to level 20. Killing skellies is only fun for about an hour or so at most in a given week.

gaea106 wrote:
1) People that play games for fun. Never being able to achieve the highest level or "end" of the game is really frustrating for these people. They don't want to work to hard at getting to the "end", but will if it is fun all the way there.


Little Teapot wrote:

Ok, Gaea states that type 1 wants to have fun along the way, and see some progression in their character while having that fun. (also that they want to see then end without working, which i disagree with, it was a quality stated in BOTH 1 and 2... kinda contradictory)


I said I would work towards it if it was fun along the way and I could still roleplay and have a balanced experience. I didn't say I was completely unwilling to work towards a goal.

For example. It took me one calendar month to get from level 8 to level 9 under the new system. If it took that long... what can I expect at level 15? Three months to level? Ridiculous.
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After reading what Gaea has had to say, I think I am in love. Hey Kindo, gimme one of your damn hearts. Heh. icon_smile.gif
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gaea106
PostWed 05/21/03 12:29am
By the way Little Teapot, thanks for explaining...  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I aim to lvl 1000 xp per night, when there is no event or my friends aren't on. My that rate, I need about 19 days to get to lvl 20. And that's from 19-20. If it took you 1 month to get you from 8 to 9, then you should probably explore a bit. You can also team up and take on trolls or something. The point is, it's ALL JUST A MATTER OF TIME. And I've got plenty of time.
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OMG, see you just don't get it do you?

It took me a month because most of my time is spent roleplaying. Not because I don't know where the "good to kill" monsters are. I played on Dyso when 2.x was new. I have been on Dyso a long time. I know where the monsters are. *rolls eyes*

1000 xp per night? And you play every night I guess. Well some of us don't play everynight. I play as often as I can. I don't want to devote hours of my precious free time trying to get 1000 xp per night. I want to have fun. Roleplay, chat, hang out meeting new people. Then perhaps go hunt for a bit. If I don't hunt then no biggie. Other nights when in a bad mood or no one was on, I would hunt exclusively.

And I admit that level 8 was a bad level. I wasn't quite strong enough for trolls, so I had to do tons of the other lower level monsters on the southern coast. After leveling I could do the trolls solo.

The point is that I want to level and roleplay. But I don't want to spend so much time on leveling because it is relatively less important I think. But at the same time, getting killed when you are roleplaying and running around with friends is frustrating and irritating.
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven wrote:
The point is, it's ALL JUST A MATTER OF TIME. And I've got plenty of time.


most of us don't. that's the problem. we don't have the time to even have a chance of seeing level 20. also, when you're AT level 20, all you can do is flaunt a bit, then be done, bored out of your mind.
that's why Gesh kicked the money down to 2 GP per monster, because we'd have tradeskills, and get some honest to god trading done, instead of our psudotrading. If we made the exp system about twice as hard (or more, it was still too easy,I gained about 2 levels a night when i was actually TRYING to level...) as 2.x and put some Tradeskills into the mix, along with a more rounded EI then Dyso'd be crawling with non-whiners. It would be paradise. Instead they scrapped TS, released it a bit early and gesh fled to "Rebirth" and was never heard from again. hell, I was personally expecting Tradeskills to be put in instead of 3 weeks of testing (I don't think there's a thread without Uin saying "It's too hard" in that forum, and the rest of the testers agreeing) and a release of the mod...

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Matthijs says:
   oh ja, ik weet het zonet nog niet
Matthijs says:
   het ziet er toch wel een beetje naar uit dat we nederlands praten
Matthijs says:
   mischien moet ik dan maar eens vaker nederlands gaan praten
Matthijs says:
   kan je me ook meteen niet op al mijn spellinsfouten wijzen
There you have it! indisputable proof Solo's a fascist!!!
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gaea106
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 12:49 am    Post subject: Re: Campaign Proposal Reply with quote

gaea106 wrote:

But I will tell you all this much. I went to Arkania, which is similar to what Dyso 2.x was (a fun server). You can level up to level 20 in a really long day if you wanted to. But you know what? I have two characters and neither is above level 16. I roleplay too much to train.

I could get to level 20 in about 5 hours or less... but I spend probably 6 hours of roleplay to 1 hour of training... so getting there will be difficult and challenging enough for me. The fun part of it is that I know that I CAN get to level 20 when I choose to.

And the other fun part is that I am intentionally not training a character because her being less experienced is a big part of the roleplay right now. When she gets to level 20 it will be extremely rewarding because I will have put alot of time and effort into building her character and story. And once she hits level 20, it doesn't stop there. Arkania has a system where once you get over level 20 there are still bonuses and stuff you can get when you hit certain xp markers. You get stat boosts and stuff. So there will be plenty for me to do for months to come with one character. And the key is it will be FUN not frustrating and tedious...

Angel


See the above bolded text...
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After reading what Gaea has had to say, I think I am in love. Hey Kindo, gimme one of your damn hearts. Heh. icon_smile.gif
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Little Teapot
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah
I used the idea in both of my posts
(i think.. maybe i took that part out on the first {the intelligent} one)
character progression past level 20. that includes tradeskills and cash. and extra levels, if they want to put those in (which they won't)...
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Matthijs says:
   oh ja, ik weet het zonet nog niet
Matthijs says:
   het ziet er toch wel een beetje naar uit dat we nederlands praten
Matthijs says:
   mischien moet ik dan maar eens vaker nederlands gaan praten
Matthijs says:
   kan je me ook meteen niet op al mijn spellinsfouten wijzen
There you have it! indisputable proof Solo's a fascist!!!
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gaea106 wrote:
OMG, see you just don't get it do you?

It took me a month because most of my time is spent roleplaying. Not because I don't know where the "good to kill" monsters are. I played on Dyso when 2.x was new. I have been on Dyso a long time. I know where the monsters are. *rolls eyes*

1000 xp per night? And you play every night I guess. Well some of us don't play everynight. I play as often as I can. I don't want to devote hours of my precious free time trying to get 1000 xp per night. I want to have fun. Roleplay, chat, hang out meeting new people. Then perhaps go hunt for a bit. If I don't hunt then no biggie. Other nights when in a bad mood or no one was on, I would hunt exclusively.

And I admit that level 8 was a bad level. I wasn't quite strong enough for trolls, so I had to do tons of the other lower level monsters on the southern coast. After leveling I could do the trolls solo.

The point is that I want to level and roleplay. But I don't want to spend so much time on leveling because it is relatively less important I think. But at the same time, getting killed when you are roleplaying and running around with friends is frustrating and irritating.


How can I see your point? You never mentioned it. How would I know you spend the time RPing and chatting?

It doesn't take HOURS to get 1000 xp. I get that in, say, 20 minutes. The rest of the time I spend on dyso is either Rping or chatting or anything that comes to mind. I don't have that much time to spend on Dyso either. I have plenty of time in the sense that there isn't a DEADLINE for me to meet lvl 20. I don't plan on leaving anytime soon. I think it's the same for all of you.
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My vision on 3.x:

XP went down, possibility to earn money went down..
At the higher levels players now take ages to level, but in the meanwhile they still find huge loads of jewels. At one point, since they can't buy their new ueber items yet cause they can't use em (not high enough level yet), they'll spend their surplus cash on other stuff. I'll give you 3 guesses what that "other stuff" is.. Yes.. Either equipment for alts or for lowbie friends. Result: balance = gone.
Now if we had tradeskills everyone would have the same chance of making money, since the most powerful magical items would come from both quests (not a lot of those) and tradeskills. With item level restrictions gone this would allow for creation of ueber items and lowlevel people being able to use all sorts of magical items. The first response would probably be: "Wouldn't that destroy the balance even more?". I think not. Let the economy dictate the market. Sure a level 1 would be able to use a level 60 weapon, but would he be able to afford it? And since the weapons would in theory be able to get to level 100 or so, thus being INCREDIBLY expensive, would higher level players throw money around just to buy more equipment for lowbie friends, or would they save up for that next new ueberweapon. Some wear & tear script could also be created so certain items have a durability, so noone would walk around with their ueber weapons forever (forget to repair = poof, weapon gone).

In hindsight this might look a lot like Diablo. There are 2 major differences though. Attaining higher levels is still a LOT harder (so it may spook those non-RP people away). Economy dictates the market, and gold still isn't easy to come by. Noone will have 100% ueber-equipment, and there's always room for improvement.


What we need is a proper set of tradeskills. I think that would even stop Uin from bitching about boredom icon_wink.gif
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hrm, my chars are stuck at 16 / 6 / 5 for about a month now, cause I either don't play due to RL issues or am not hunting anything... Still, I know that every one of them can gain 1000XP in under 20 minutes. I guess on 17 it would be harder, and on 18, 19, 20 too. But, the last time I went to Topaz I got 80xp for a stupid 30 second kill kobold, around 50/60 for a 10 second kill devourer. How is that hard to level? Sure, you need to kill more than one of them to get another level, but that's the point. I don't think you're supposed to kill one creature per level. Maybe we should just have XP-levers in Eleriina, one pull 1000 XP.
And if you spent one month to go from 8 to 9, you either really were in the wrong areas, or you didn't hunt for more than 2 hours in this month. And if it's the latter, then it's not the XP system at fault, maybe you should have got rewarded more RP XP by the DMs, but it's not something that can be scripted into the XP system...
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Uin
PostWed 05/21/03 11:14am
I'm not saying anything about it being hard to lvl, I'm saying that lvl is not fun in the slightest.  Reply with quote
 
Kindo
PostWed 05/21/03 12:03pm
So because you don't find any joy in it, you have to crap on everyone else too? Why just NOT LEVEL, Uin?  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dysotopians, try to understand whats happening here and read the posts. I'm not "crapping" on anyone, I'm asking ppl not to lvl, we don't play dyso while it remains unfun. You can still support this without not lvling.
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The one problem Raven hasnt faced yet is why ...remember if you do get to 20 and then by mischance or design die YOU go back to 19...and start yer 1000 a night again ??So Rave are you going to get to 20 then play safe forever or RP and sometime or other die......AND if yer going to die sometime why bother with all the effort??

OH and before you say this aint so I promise it is and it has happened to one player ................
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*sigh*

Well I understand that the xp system has changed since I last leveled on Dyso. I gave up on leveling and just roleplayed the last few times I was on.

When I was leveling by myself before the change I was getting about 160 for trolls if I could kill them. I think I was only betting around 40-60 for the lizard guys on the southern coast.
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uin wrote:
Dysotopians, try to understand whats happening here and read the posts. I'm not "crapping" on anyone, I'm asking ppl not to lvl, we don't play dyso while it remains unfun. You can still support this without not lvling.



Uin... PLEASE define what is "fun" for you. DM events? I've seen you in them before... in the crypts no less... and gaining cool items.

Guess what... some of us are perpetually overlooked for DM events as there are not enough DMs to go around. As such... I feel COMPELLED to powergame from time-to-time just to gain enough coin to purchase some cool items (you do like cool items, don't you?). Also, leveling allows my char to go to new areas that are more dangerous than the last... ones that I otherwise would never see.

This is a FANTASY ADVENTURE RPG, right?

There must be a balance.
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think you quite get it yet.

You talk of the advantages of lvling (gets you coin, lvls you up, get to harder areas).

BUT ITS STILL FUCKING BORING!

And if lack of DM events is the problem, get more DMs.
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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2003 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes... lack of DM events is indeed a big part of the problem!

I have been RP'ing about 99% of my time in the last three weeks and have not gained a single level. That's fine... but I've also been in ZERO dm events during those three weeks and TWO total in my 8 weeks on Dyso. (I should mention that my char stumbled into one that your char was in just the other night... but I really don't think I was supposed to be involved... just happened in the area and all).

So... yes, I would say that is the problem for me... but not for you?
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