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True Seeing

 
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dreamin'
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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2003 2:23 pm    Post subject: True Seeing Reply with quote

PHB 3rd Ed. p.267 wrote:

True seeing does not help the viewer to see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means.

So, one thing that always bugs me is that True Seeing in NWN does enable the caster to see hidden creatures, now I thought I'd try to substitute the true seeing script with a new one.
t supposed to be so.
My first idea is using a combined see invisibility/ultravision effect. That should cover everything True Seeing is used for (invisible creatures and seeing in darkness). Did I miss anything? I think I remember reading somewhere that true seeing in NWN gives +10 to spot? Shouldn't be that hard to script...
Anyways, I just need your input about other differences between NWN true seeing and NWN see invisibility, so I can adjust the script icon_wink.gif
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Jon316
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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2003 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I wanted to get a measly +10 spot check from true seeing, I would take clairaudiance/voyance instead, it's two levels lower, if I wanted see invis and ultravision then I would take those two, and no, true seeing is correct as it is, it spots all hiding oppenents automatically, besides stealth is retarded anyways, I can stand infront of someone 2 feet away in broad daylight and they cant see me because im stealthed.... bah
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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2003 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You didn't even look at my quote from the PHB or at the PHB itself, did you? icon_rolleyes.gif
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Drudley
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PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2003 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dreamin, you got it all cowered, but Jon has a point.

If possible you should make everyone that stand close enough with his face facing the stealthed and its at the day see the guy that is stealthed.
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2003 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

true seeing is correct damnit, read the description in NWN!!!!!!

if you havn't got it yet, dont you realize that NWN will never be D&D by the book? i got over that a long time ago, NWN the way it is now, regardless of what people say, is very balanced... it's only the lamers that cant figure out how to get something to work that go and say "hey this is not D&D, this isn't right!" well guess what, your correct, it's not D&D by the book, it's made for a game and it sells and hey guess what, it's balanced in every way i can think of -if- you know what your doing


so neah icon_smile.gif
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Drudley
PostTue 05/27/03 6:49am
Errr... NWN wasnt made with those hardcore rules, yet some mods made them and used them, same thing...  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2003 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon, let the guy make it DnD if he wants to, sjeesj.......

Just because Bioware DID NOT make it DnD does NOT mean that everyone should just drop the DnD idea. Bleh
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dreamin'
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2003 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have fun playing my mod anyways, so you don't have to get a fit about it weirdlook.gif
Oh, and my NWN manual says on p. 124:
Quote:

True Seeing (Divination): Can see through Sanctuary and Invisibility Spells

icon_mrgreen.gif
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Jon316
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2003 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

uhm, let me think, because it does??

now your not really making any sense at all, the nwn description says it sees hidden oppenents and it does.

case closed.
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2003 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The description in-game and in the manual are different, that's all I wanted to point out icon_exclaim.gif
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Little Teapot
PostTue 05/27/03 7:44pm
If you want to debate the rules of True seeing, do it in CR&F. dreamin' is just trying to make the spell follow the book.  Reply with quote
 
dreamin'
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2003 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyways back to the topic:
Did I miss another difference between See Invisibility and True Seeing in NWN? If I combine the see invisibility and ultravision effect, will my custom true seeing spell lack anything else than not being able to spot hidden creatures? It'll probably miss sanctuaried creatures, too, so I'll have to workaround that, but anything else?
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Drudley
PostTue 05/27/03 8:30pm
See invis sees sanctuary stuff i think, but you need +10 spot, right?  Reply with quote
 
Little Teapot
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2003 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drudley wrote:
See invis sees sanctuary stuff i think, but you need +10 spot, right?


i thought the +10 to spot was only Clairvoyance (in NWN, at least)
_________________
Matthijs says:
   oh ja, ik weet het zonet nog niet
Matthijs says:
   het ziet er toch wel een beetje naar uit dat we nederlands praten
Matthijs says:
   mischien moet ik dan maar eens vaker nederlands gaan praten
Matthijs says:
   kan je me ook meteen niet op al mijn spellinsfouten wijzen
There you have it! indisputable proof Solo's a fascist!!!
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Drudley
PostTue 05/27/03 8:45pm
I'm out in deep water here, i'm not sure but other mods adds an extra +10 to remade True Seeings

Last edited by Drudley on Wed May 28, 2003 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total
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dreamin'
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PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2003 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya, +10 to spot, i think I read that one somewhere, on the other hand, knowing lazy bioware, i think it doesn't work this way, as there's no other use for spot than to see hiding creatures, and those are detected by true seeing anyways icon_wink.gif
But it may help balance a bit with my true seeing...
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

umm i totally agree with this.the only thing nwn has as argument is that when hidden in D&D you can't wak around people just like that.you have to stay hidden or walk silently behind someone.

but since the movement speed is decreased i recon it works alrite..
ANYWHO...don't give +10 spot.do what' it's supposed to give. see invisi and see thrgouhg darkness and sanctuary.-.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I brought this up on the bio forum. Yes TruSee is not as the phb, but without the spot stealth feature it would be a useless spell, just an expensive see invisible. TruSee in PnP has more uses, such as seeing the true forms of polymorphed creatures.

I still think its wrong for TruSee to spot stealth, but what else is it going to do that ultravision and see invis can't?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jon, for Christ's sake, man! I don't think he ever implied that the spell was bugged or whatever. He simply stated that True Seeing in NWN and True Seeing in PnP differs. And appearantly, he wants the True Seeing to be more like the PnP spell in HIS MOD! Gawd, NWN sucks totally. It's the worldbuilders that make the game. If a certain worldbuilder (dreamin') wants it to be more close to the PnP rules, then so be it. He never claimed it to be a bug, he just wanted to change some stuff in his module.
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dreamin'
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uin wrote:
I brought this up on the bio forum. Yes TruSee is not as the phb, but without the spot stealth feature it would be a useless spell, just an expensive see invisible. TruSee in PnP has more uses, such as seeing the true forms of polymorphed creatures.

I still think its wrong for TruSee to spot stealth, but what else is it going to do that ultravision and see invis can't?


It will do the same that ultravision and see invisibility do, combined. And maybe give a spot bonus, don't know yet
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Little Teapot
PostTue 06/17/03 3:57pm
true seeing also sees through Illusions...

want me to write out the full list of abilities it gives?
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Sep
PostTue 06/17/03 4:18pm
Yes. please!

icon_mrgreen.gif
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Little Teapot
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok... P&P rules:

Everyone Sees
Through magical darkness
Magically hidden doors
through Blur/Displacement
invisible objects and creatures
through illusions
true form of polymorphed people
120 feet into the ethereal plane

Divine Casters see:

Alignment of other Creatures



of these abilities, only a couple seem plausable to put into NWN... you COULD put the alignment thing in, but the only way I could see that happening is if you had an eye tool (like in Dyso). otherwise the True seeing in NWN seems perfectly fine, except it should cost 250 gold to cast, and it sees Hidden Smeechers.
_________________
Matthijs says:
   oh ja, ik weet het zonet nog niet
Matthijs says:
   het ziet er toch wel een beetje naar uit dat we nederlands praten
Matthijs says:
   mischien moet ik dan maar eens vaker nederlands gaan praten
Matthijs says:
   kan je me ook meteen niet op al mijn spellinsfouten wijzen
There you have it! indisputable proof Solo's a fascist!!!
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Jon316
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Page 267 of the PHB wrote:


True Seeing
Divination
Level: Clr 5, Drd 7, Knowledge 5, Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V,S,M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
_____________________________________________
_____________________________________________

You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The Subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact location of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Furthermore, the subject can focus her vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.
True Seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or it's equivalent. It does not cancel concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True Seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means.
In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance. Additionally, the divine version of this spell allows the subject to see auras, noting alignments of creatures at a glance.
Material Components: An ointment for the eyes that costs 250gp and is made from mushroom powder, saffron, and fat.




Ok so I was reading my PHB and I decided to type this all out professionally to see the stuff, so well I was wrong about it spoting hiding critters, sorry about that I thought it mentioned the exact opposite... hehehe... sorry icon_sad.gif

But anyways, there is the info... well... at least I got it right in the fact the spell works in NWN like it's supposed to in the description...

lol.

Peace.

(edit) damnit i seen tp posted something similar but not as cool...
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dreamin'
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, the very first post in this thread, posted by me, started with a quote from p.267 of the 3rd Ed PHB. Soo, it needs only two pages and about 20 posts of screaming and ranting for some people to acknowledge that I actually know what I'm talking of? I'm impressed icon_mrgreen.gif
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Jon316
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No the fact that what I argued about was something entirely different, I'm sorry do you forgive me? =(


The only thing I thought that YOU thought was wrong was that true seeing was not working as it was supposed to in NWN.... I didn't really understand... Call me ignorant I guess, I totally got it wrong what you said, but yes you were correct that it doesn't work like it does in PNP... I am right in the fact it works like it's supposed to in NWN... can we drop and make up and go on and be friends? =D icon_mrgreen.gif
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Kindo
PostWed 06/18/03 12:12am
emot-heartbeat.gif  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

actually, sorry to bring this up, but see invis doesn't see through blur (and I'm not sure, but I kinda remember still having the 50% miss chance with See Invis on some ogres...)
_________________
Matthijs says:
   oh ja, ik weet het zonet nog niet
Matthijs says:
   het ziet er toch wel een beetje naar uit dat we nederlands praten
Matthijs says:
   mischien moet ik dan maar eens vaker nederlands gaan praten
Matthijs says:
   kan je me ook meteen niet op al mijn spellinsfouten wijzen
There you have it! indisputable proof Solo's a fascist!!!


Last edited by Little Teapot on Wed Jun 18, 2003 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total
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dreamin'
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little Teapot wrote:
actually, sorry to bring this up, but see invis and don't see through blur (and I'm not sure, but I kinda remember still having the 50% miss chance with See Invis on some ogres...)

Yep, that could be, and that was my point of this thread anyways... Not discussing how true seeing works in PnP, but which parts of PnP true seeing are not covered by a combination of see invisibility and ultravision icon_wink.gif
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Little Teapot
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2003 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True seeing eiminates teh 10% miss chance for Ghostly Visage (or whatever it's called)

I'm not sure, but I think that see invis doesn't, and neither would UltraVision.

anyhow, that's something you may need to cover, so... yeah.
_________________
Matthijs says:
   oh ja, ik weet het zonet nog niet
Matthijs says:
   het ziet er toch wel een beetje naar uit dat we nederlands praten
Matthijs says:
   mischien moet ik dan maar eens vaker nederlands gaan praten
Matthijs says:
   kan je me ook meteen niet op al mijn spellinsfouten wijzen
There you have it! indisputable proof Solo's a fascist!!!
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