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SoU: Bugs and Changes
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Maelstrom696969
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2003 4:52 pm    Post subject: SoU: Bugs and Changes Reply with quote

Heh. Maybe this should be it's own Forum. I've found 2 already that BioWare has asked me to submit to them in email, and there's bunches more (what a surprise!). I'm so glad to be an unpaid tester for BioWare.
ANYways...(btw should this be Sticky?)

Arcane Archer
One of the Prerequisites states that you must be "Able to cast 1st Level Arcane Spells". That's a quote from right out of the game. Well, I made a char with just 1 level of Bard (took it at 7), had a CHA of 8 so I couldn't even cast Cantrips, but hey! At Level 8 there was Arcane Archer waiting for me!

Okay now the some bad news:

Point Blank Shot
When your opponent is within melee range the -4 penalty still applies. icon_evil.gif The weird thing is, the '+1 within 15 feet works fine'. Now, I've only tried this with a Longbow so far, so...
Oh and yes, I know that this is the way it's supposed to work in PnP (I mean I guess so, a good friend told me), but the description in-game still states that it removes the -4, and since they didn't put in "Precise Shot" anyway (that's the one in PnP that *does* remove the -4)...

And in other good/bad news:

Weapon Specialization
They made this to conform to PnP rules (so I'm told). That is, you can now take it at any time no matter what class you pick when you Level Up - that's right, you don't have to pick Fighter when you Level to get it - as long as you meet the requirements. The requirements, however, have changed. You must not only have a BAB of +4, but you must have 4 levels of Fighter. DOH! icon_wink.gif
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Little Teapot
PostSat 06/21/03 5:51pm
actually, precise shot only removes a -4 when you're shooting into combat, so you lose the chance to hit your buddies by accident.  Reply with quote
 
Maelstrom696969
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2003 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually yes that is true I'm sorry I forgot to clarify that. Precise shot only removes 1 of the -4's you get when attacking someone in melee. To clarify this: in PnP, when you are shooting at an opponent who is involved in melee combat there is a -4 applied to hit. Precise Shot eliminates this. When an opponent is fighting melee with *you*, there is yet *another* -4 applied, which is eliminated with PBS.

And since I think I saw myself getting a -8 with a different character without having PBS, I think that they started to put Precise Shot in, changed the code on PBS, then forgot to change it back. Because like I said, the in-game Feat description still states that there is a - 4 eliminated, but NOTHING is said about an additional -4, much less a new Feat to eliminate IT.
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Maelstrom696969
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2003 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OkeeDoke. BioWare finally said something aboot the bloody Point Blank Shot bug. Yes, it's a bug. Kind of. The fact is they were indeed going to implement Precise Shot, but it wasn't working right, so they took it out even before Alpha testing, but the code never got changed back (way to go for noticing, testers). So they are going to fix it with 1.31.

No word yet on when that's due out, however. icon_evil.gif
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2003 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, actually in third ed if you fire a bow in melee combat, not only do you provoke an attack of opportunity, but you also suffer the -4 regardless of whether or not you have point blank shot or precise shot. From what I know anyway, there is no feat that can get rid of this negative, so I say that they keep it that way.

And as for what you said with the Weapon Specialization, you actually have to be a LEVEL 4+ fighter in order to take it. I'm glad that they changed it back the way they are supposed to have it.
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Kindo
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2003 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good thing on the fighter level 4 for wep spec, guess that does it for the lamo 19 whatever/1 fighter. yay!

and uh, I've always thought bow in melee is lame so...
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HEY, a bow in melee is no different than someone duel wielding or fighting with only a single weapon isn't it?

It's unique and neat, and how my divine archer fights!!! icon_smile.gif

sure, you'll die a lot quicker but it's still cool. besides archers should switch to a melee weapon (finesse one especially, since they need a good dex for a bow to begin with) ... but mostly archers are for extra cover... and a rapid shot sneak attacking rogue fighter can really rack up a lot of damage quickly if they know how to do it... and pick off important targets first, ie mages...
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Maelstrom696969
PostWed 06/25/03 4:21pm
When Kindo thinks something is lame, monkeys pee themselves.  Reply with quote
 
Kindo
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL...you silly...you.

Anyway, bow in melee is just so wrong. How in the schell can you draw back the string and fire an arrow if the enemy is like 1 meter away from you? It's a known fact that it doesn't do much damage if you're that close. You should be more like Legolas, he uses those dagger thingies in melee. Oh my god is he sexy or what?! Damn that hair, and that perfect skin....mmmm
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Drudley
PostWed 06/25/03 7:33pm
You forgot the classic "*looks gay*" at the end!!!  Reply with quote
 
Maelstrom696969
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drud, I think it went without saying that time...

But Kindo, I'm not sure who's been filling your head with lies about using a bow IRL, but it will do MUCH more damage up close than far away. Simple physics: air resistance. An arrow, like a bullet, is moving at it's highest velocity the moment it is fired.

The reason why in PnP you always get at least a -4 no matter how many Feats you take is because of another thing you pointed out, though. It is indeed difficult to pull back the string AND get off a good shot when someone is swinging a 4-foot sword at you. But if you're good enough, you can do it.....

I mean, I would assume so. icon_cool.gif
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Kindo
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strange, I always thought that if the projectile (the arrow) had some time to fly, like getting that cool bow-looking thing and approach its target from above, it'd have more penetration power (those words made me all warm and fuzzy). I am actually pretty sure of that. I mean, other stuff like a gunshot would of course do more damage in close range, but it's different with a bow. It needs to charge up that speed it gets from traveling through the air and stuff. If the target is only 1 meter away from you, it won't do much damage. Seriously, I'm so sure about this that my knees get all wiggly.

And I stand by my statement that it looks silly to use a bow in melee.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2003 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kindo wrote:
Strange, I always thought that if the projectile (the arrow) had some time to fly, like getting that cool bow-looking thing and approach its target from above, it'd have more penetration power (those words made me all warm and fuzzy). I am actually pretty sure of that. I mean, other stuff like a gunshot would of course do more damage in close range, but it's different with a bow. It needs to charge up that speed it gets from traveling through the air and stuff. If the target is only 1 meter away from you, it won't do much damage. Seriously, I'm so sure about this that my knees get all wiggly.

And I stand by my statement that it looks silly to use a bow in melee.

you're wrong. An arrow, unless fired in a high wind, would have all of it's energy coming from the bowman. It may straighten out in flight, but as I know from any basic physics class, it would lose energy from the conversion of it's energy from moving to gravitational potential energy.

Trust me from my lacrosse experience too: a 1 lb. ball thrown from 3 feet away hurts much more than a 1 lb. ball thrown from 30 feet away.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends the English Longbow was effective *Crecy**Agincourt**because of the way it was used which was firing on an arc .the extra momentum and mass it gained on the downward part of the arc was what made it so lethal ...as witnessed by the thousands of dead french Knights there plate armor pierced as if they were of no value.----which given the use of the Longbow traditionally it was.The usage of Longbows Shortbows and crossbows was very different....so it depends on the bow.


Please note also that as can be seen from the reports of Agincourt at close range the long bow was far from effective even against man at arms never mind armored knights..at longer ranges it was nearly always lethal
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

M-K wrote:
Please note also that as can be seen from the reports of Agincourt at close range the long bow was far from effective even against man at arms never mind armored knights..at longer ranges it was nearly always lethal


now, I ask you, is that because of Aim? when people are far away they're generally easier to hit with a mass of arrows fired by people who are trained to hit far away stuff. plus it's MUCH harder to aim a 6 foot tall bow down/even with the ground than it is a 3 foot tall one.

[edit]Also: the ONLY projectile that speeds up during flight is a self propelled missile AKA rocket/missile system. everything else loses energy to drag. [/edit]
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

longbow simply wasnt effective as a Direct fire weopan ...for a short time in particular situations it proved to be effective.but close up it didnt have the hitting power of crossbows which is why in a relatively short time.Crossbows where the mainstay of most armies and not long bows ......until the entry of gunpowder.
Remember Crossbows where more expensive generally *though training cost was less** and generally had a much slower rate of fire **as did aquebuses and muskets later**yet each in turn superceded the longbow ...why ??because off stopping power and all round a longbow was a niche weopan. too much training required to be an effective weopan ....effective area weopan was its strong point.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both longbow and crossbow are pretty much pointless in close range combat, cause unless you're a shield surfing legolas, you'll get at most one arrow off the string before the guys with the swords chop you and your bow in two pieces. There's just no way to avoid/fend of a blade with a bow in hand to hand combat.
About that arrow speed thing: no arrow gains momentum or power during it's flight. It's just physically not possible.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~marcelo/archery/library/books/badminton/docs/chapter24/chapter24_1.html wrote:

The momentum of the arrow, which determines the force of the blow on the target, is the product of the mass of the projectile (which for practical purposes may here be considered the equivalent of its weight) and the initial velocity.

Another thing that makes an arrow on short range weaker is that you probably can't even completely pull the string in hand to hand combat (those bows are huge!) So you probably would have to shoot with only partial power.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yay, dreamin' brings forth another thing that never really crossed my mind. The bow will much likely be destroyed in melee combat.
It's dead easy for a combatant to just smash the bow in one blow.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You people should watch the history channal icon_rolleyes.gif

Mail Call, a show, tested a crossbow... he was at a max only 2-3 feet from the thing and the arrow would miss... So, crossbows are basically useless all the time.

Another show on the History Channal(( icon_rolleyes.gif )) Tested long bows. Once the "knights" got in close the archers had to retreat. The heavy armor of the knights slowedd them down then the archers would turn around and kill all the knights...
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

M-K wrote:
Depends the English Longbow was effective *Crecy**Agincourt**because of the way it was used which was firing on an arc .the extra momentum and mass it gained on the downward part of the arc was what made it so lethal ...as witnessed by the thousands of dead french Knights there plate armor pierced as if they were of no value.----which given the use of the Longbow traditionally it was.The usage of Longbows Shortbows and crossbows was very different....so it depends on the bow.


Please note also that as can be seen from the reports of Agincourt at close range the long bow was far from effective even against man at arms never mind armored knights..at longer ranges it was nearly always lethal


Uh... there is no extra momentum or mass gained on the downward arc. It would have exactly the same mass, and ignoring wind, the same momentum.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Norrec wrote:
You people should watch the history channal icon_rolleyes.gif

Mail Call, a show, tested a crossbow... he was at a max only 2-3 feet from the thing and the arrow would miss... So, crossbows are basically useless all the time.

Another show on the History Channal(( icon_rolleyes.gif )) Tested long bows. Once the "knights" got in close the archers had to retreat. The heavy armor of the knights slowedd them down then the archers would turn around and kill all the knights...

You people should try the real thing:

I shot an crossbow a few times in my life and was able to aim and hit pretty good, certainly at a distance of 2-3 feet. Those people on history channel were either using bad crossbows or are stupid icon_wink.gif
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK well...appearantly this has turned to a discussion about the functionality and usefulness of bows and crossbows.

Whatever.

I still think that using a bow in close combat looks stupid, and you should be boiled in pea-soup for doing that.
Switch to melee weapons, please.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dreamin' wrote:
Norrec wrote:
You people should watch the history channal icon_rolleyes.gif

Mail Call, a show, tested a crossbow... he was at a max only 2-3 feet from the thing and the arrow would miss... So, crossbows are basically useless all the time.

Another show on the History Channal(( icon_rolleyes.gif )) Tested long bows. Once the "knights" got in close the archers had to retreat. The heavy armor of the knights slowedd them down then the archers would turn around and kill all the knights...

You people should try the real thing:

I shot an crossbow a few times in my life and was able to aim and hit pretty good, certainly at a distance of 2-3 feet. Those people on history channel were either using bad crossbows or are stupid icon_wink.gif


Heh, when it did hit tho... icon_twisted.gif
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crossbows are surprisingly inaccurate compared to bows.

And Archers wouldn't have ran away, turned round and fired. More than likely they'd run away and then their knights would charge the field.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dreamin', the crossbows you've fired a few times in your life, were they 15th Century replicas, or modern-day crossbows? Modern-day ones are incredibly accurate. True, not quite as much as bows, but still very effective. The ones made way back in time did indeed suck a lot.

And as far as whether or not you can be in melee with a bow and not have your attackers break your bow with their sword, then you must consider that you're not BLOCKING with your bow. People who use a bow usually have an extremely high DEX (remember even a score of 16 is considered quite excellent when compared to "average" dexterity), and thus they avoid hits by dodging, not blocking.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those crossbows are replicas (i know some people who basically live in the late middle ages icon_cool.gif ), and I wasn't talking about being wilhelm tell with them, but they were clearly not as inacurate as the history channel seemed to suggest. I mean, i would be able to hit a man with them over a few metres icon_wink.gif

And noone's gonna dodge a skilled swordsman for more than maybe one blow... and if I'd imagine the swordsman being half as fast as the more experienced members of my dojo (practising kendo), the man with the bow is dead the moment he's in close combat range.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I started thinking along these same lines a long time ago. One of the major faults with PnP is that is does lump all the factors in "how hard someone is to hit" into one single factor, known as AC. However, WotC and d20, etc., admit that there's more than your armor that is a sub-factor in that. Hence "Dodge AC" and "DEX Bonus", etc.

So I set about trying to come up with a fair way to calculate whether or not someone is hit by something based on whether they are fast or dextrous enough to do so, or their armor or shield deflects it, or both. I also thought that one advantage of this would be that you could put in a more accurate damage to the weapon or shield (blocking) or armor.

It wasn't easy. Obviously, I haven't really come up with a good system, because basically it involved revamping much of the entire combat system, which I can't really do, simply because there's just too much to consider. I suppose that if a group of people sat down to do it, they could, but that would probably turn into D&D 4e.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

one thing thats never made sense to me is how Heavy Armor would allow you to be hit less...i mean of everything I think HEAVY armor would make you be hit more...I think for it to make more sense it would be that Chain and lesser add to AC...with Chain mail having a little bit of resistance on it, and Heavy Armors having alot of resistance on them but no AC bonus, not an ubered out resistance either but yeah...you get what i mean...
But thats just my way of looking at it.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, from a battlefield perspective.. in the early ages, no archer would be dumb enough to challenge a knight in single combat- unless he had a deathwish. Archers were used in battle- more often than not, the opponents were spread out all over the field. If a crossbow or bow was shot, it would hit SOMETHING of the opposing force, thus accuracy wasn't necessary. Bows and crossbows were used to weaken the enemy before the knights trampled over the rest of them.

About the turning around and running, yes, archers did do that- but only when the opposing force pushed through the infantry, or the archers were flanked. Archers were the first line of everybattle, but after the initial 5 arrow 'loose' they sat back and watched the rest of it.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2003 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But ya'll gotta remember that Archers were usually very weak individuals who just had very good eyesight. In D&D, your character is not necessarily very weak. He has a high DEX, which means he's very good at dodging a sword. Like I said earlier, a DEX of 18 is like Heroic status. Anything over that gets you closer and closer to Superhuman. So I think that anyone who makes a character who's got a high DEX, well, the answer is Yes, they CAN dodge an expert Swordsman well.
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