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Falkhor
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the city being this big, it's supposed to be the metropolis of tuskan isle.
It's designed that way so we can add lots of content to it over time: player houses, city quests for all levels (1-5 in docks, 3-8 in Hive, 3-10 in temple warren, 5-12 in Merchant and 10-20 in Nobleman's quarter and palace grounds). It's not 3-4 streets before you're out of town really... you start in the docks, go to temple warren and out the westgate and you're out of the city. Navigation will improve as more mapnotes and waysigns are added. Funny thing is, what I hated about Dyso's cities was that they were way too small and nothing interesting was there, except for its sewers. Just give the city some time to grow on you. In the meantime how about putting the starting point closer to the citygates? That way you can just get up out of bed, say bye to the innkeeper and move out of town or decide to explore the city to more detail.
The bathhouse should be in Merchant Warren, though in future might be changed/replaced by one that Gaea made.
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Foozbane
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grusk: bathhouse -- agreed, but not finalized. I have run into a hak pack which adds realistic looking bathtubs, should be fun icon_smile.gif I've also found a placeable water hak so that you can make deep custom-shaped pools for bathhouse clients to wade in! icon_biggrin.gif

City size: I think it'd be a good idea to break the Tuskan main city area up into a couple pieces, and start new characters off in a smaller fragment of the two. In this smaller area, just have exits leading out to a few nature/combat destinations, as well as a clearly marked exit out to the "city core" where the body of the city exists (probably would simply be the existing Tuskan city area). Ideally every building there would have a sign out front, and would have something useful inside for players to visit. Empty buildings just don't do it for me in a supposedly active part of a city!

Player housing would presumably be located in this larger city core, along with most of the upper level quests, guild houses and so on. The smaller area would be for the inn, standard gear shops, and a handful of quests designed to acquaint new players with the nearby areas -- including a couple "delivery" quests which take players into the big city core, which should get them acquainted with it thereby.

In short, yes I think the intro area should be small so that players aren't overwhelmed to begin with. Even with map pins and signage I think they will tend to feel overwhelmed if the city extends off into the distance in every direction when they first enter it.

I think Eleriina could have been about half the size and served its purpose much better if it had been. Inn, merchants, rift gate, fountain, exits ... that's all you really need.

Thoughts?

Fooz
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Z
PostSat 07/19/03 9:14am
You know my response already Foozy.  Reply with quote
 
Grusk
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My thought is that it needed the arena. People got bored alot, and people got angry alot.

The pit wasn't as readily available as Eleriina North, seeing as the pit was ... well, a pit. Eleriina North had three pits and plenty of room surrounding the pits for some massive duelage.

Basically: Add an arena somewhere, where you don't lose XP and don't have to go to hell or palace of judgement, or wherever it is you go in the new mod.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Foozbane wrote:

City size: I think it'd be a good idea to break the Tuskan main city area up into a couple pieces, and start new characters off in a smaller fragment of the two. In this smaller area, just have exits leading out to a few nature/combat destinations, as well as a clearly marked exit out to the "city core" where the body of the city exists (probably would simply be the existing Tuskan city area). Ideally every building there would have a sign out front, and would have something useful inside for players to visit. Empty buildings just don't do it for me in a supposedly active part of a city!

icon_exclaim.gif

I second that, I attest, that the city core should be a teaming place with connections to every side of the city, either four or six area changes to other places.

And the map needs to be oriented with the rest, to the North of the area that's chosen, say "The Hive" got chosen, clean out the junk and beggers- shape it into a cleaner looking city, to the north- have the grave yard, to the east- the merchants quarter, to the west- the outside area, to the south, the docks.

In the merchants quarter, coming in from the east, have the north lead to some area, the other east side lead to the nobles quarter, and the south lead to the slums, the poor section of every city... which if I look at my charts and maps right, is almost always to the inner side of a harbor city and south or north a little ways, and it would fit here- northeast of the docks- southeast of the hive, sort of inbetween, but seperated from the docks and hive...


A little way north and east of the docks, and a little ways south and east of the hive (the hypothetical center of the city)

Maybe I'm rambling, but I think properly aligning the maps and cleaning the areas up to be simple and easy to locate via signs or otherwise noted by map markers would be much cleaner and easier to use.

[Edit]

In addition to Grusk's post, I'd like to add that perhaps, an IC arena for wars and barbarian like underground sports would be excellent, it would be very nice, perhaps if in the far east, say south of the nobles quarter, if you followed my suggestion, which would be east of the hypothetical slums... perhaps.

Simply a thought.

[/Edit]
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes a gladiator style place...

*excited*

Yes I could do something like that. An NPC that you could talk to to spawn certain types of animals or monsters... or if players wanted to compete then they just don't talk to him. Call him the beastmaster or something...

That would be a real challenge. I like it.

Also a battlefield... yes that too could be good. Hmm yeah and the same could be done there. We could spawn creatures for the opposing force via an NPC or something. Or player groups could battle without talking to the NPC...

Great ideas!
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Falkhor
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2003 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fooz has made a duel script some time ago allowing you to bet on the outcome of a fight between two npc, made for gladiator fights, dogfights, roosterfights etc.

The field of broken swords, currently a battlefield against kobolds will in the far future be altered in a player vs player battlefield. Players of a city militia could wage war on eachother, sending armies into combat and placing defensive and offensive devices. Don't hold you breath though, it's a long way before that function is in. For some who wondered why that area is so big, that's why.

I'm changing the starting point to an inn and on request a non pvp inn. Just outside will be a bazaar where you can do your standard shopping. From there the other city areas will be relinked.
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Grusk
PostSun 07/20/03 1:48pm
Now all you gotta do is pick up innocent commoners for these things and you have a quest.  Reply with quote
 
Grok
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2003 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey folks don't forget about me...remember the Dysoholic, who had been playing AD&D since 1979....someone drop me a line... ad_woo@yahoo.com

for now I can be found on 5 Relms

Grok the mighty, and the lonly
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Grusk
PostMon 07/21/03 8:02am
Poor Grok, Grusk will keep you company.

*Goes to get Yahoo Messenger and start up the Trillian useage, just without AIM.*
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Tae
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the idea of starting at an inn. I also think making it non pvp is a good idea. You don't want newbies/lowbies being attacked/ppd just as they enter the mod and are tinkering with their quickslots, etc. Also, I see that all areas in Tuskan are full pvp. What protections will be in place to prevent high level folks from killing lowbies in starter areas? It'll be no fun to start a game only to have your nice shiny character killed by a careless or mean person. Even in pnp, most DM's I know won't kill a new character (unless they do something really stupid).

Falkhor wrote:

I'm changing the starting point to an inn and on request a non pvp inn. Just outside will be a bazaar where you can do your standard shopping. From there the other city areas will be relinked.

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ShadowCore
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You see, Tae, that's were roleplay and securities come into play. If you kil a character, you'll get the cops after you, and you don't want that, because it's nasty icon_wink.gif

And if there's a lamer, he won't survive long, if he isn't booted/banned by a DM, he'll get killed by the guards...
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Tae
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCore wrote:
You see, Tae, that's were roleplay and securities come into play. If you kil a character, you'll get the cops after you, and you don't want that, because it's nasty icon_wink.gif

And if there's a lamer, he won't survive long, if he isn't booted/banned by a DM, he'll get killed by the guards...


Solo, I agree with you about cops/role-play. However, for the newbie player (and here, I'm thinking about people who are just visiting the mod), it's too late. They're already dead and possibly deciding to visit another mod. At least, I do that. I get on, get killed quickly and unreasonably and I figure, "bah, that's lame, I'll go elsewhere."

But the part about the cops (ect.) was what I was exactly what I was inquiring about....
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've advocated that "cop" thing for AGES in Dyso... they never implemented it though...
It would be cool to have both NPC and PC guards in each city.
I've seen some mods where NPC guards actually detect when someone is engaging in combat or pickpocketing and take action.
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Norrec
PostMon 07/21/03 9:58pm
THat would be cool. Player guards would be to.  Reply with quote
 
Kin
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm... good ideas all of them...my two cents are this...make very new charecters just get knocked senseless instead of death i.e. they lay there and after a bit they get back up..that way you don't have to keep wandering back from death and besides your not a great hero yet? then after a few levels take theprotections of and its a free for all..as for the arena..

Kin
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

good idea, but painful to code i imagine,and unrealistic..we're trying to keep rp, not weaken it...people falling down and getting back up when dying is lame, you might as well give them the level where the protections wear off.
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Falkhor
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We will have a fairly complex justtice system, consistting of DM messages telling where and by whom someone was killed, the ability to send npc or player bountyhunters after an attacker for crimes commited, guards detecting crimes ranging from murder to pickpocketing, and a persistent reputation system that will make trading with merchants or even entering a city very tough once you get branded a villain.
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Grusk
PostTue 07/22/03 2:07pm
*Grumble* DM involved In Character justice.  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like how that'll work...it'll make people responsible for their actions.....one note on my above idea is that the charcters never died the high level guy just knocked em senseless not killed em...it was just a thought..... icon_rolleyes.gif
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with having some special protections in place for lowbies. Yeah maybe it breaks RP, but more importantly, high level griefers can ruin the whole experience for their targets. All it takes is a quiet morning in Tuskandale with a couple of arsehole lvl15 griefers to wreck the game for any number of new entering characters (who, by the way, DID go through the trouble of completing the application process).

I think the justice and reputation system will be great, but I still think characters at level 1 or 2 should basically be unkillable by other PCs. Whether that's implemented as knocking the character out, or just plain old damage immunity is another issue. I would actually vote for the latter, though, because being knocked out over and over is bound to be just as frustrating as being killed outright.

I think this would actually be a pretty simple one to implement. And I think if it's really going to be almost all full-PVP there must be some kind of measure like this in place. Because it just isn't realistic to expect a DM to be able to respond any time someone had a bad day at work and decides to go take it out on some weak characters in-game.

I also think removing this protection at level 3 will be totally sufficient. Level 1 and 2'ers can still be killed by NPC creatures (aka their own stupidity). It's only other PCs that they should be immune to.

Fooz
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think over the long haul you're going to need to see a mix of the two concepts as the best approach ... that is basically what I am looking at concept wise with Har-Rhun. I firmly don't believe you can totally replace the "human effort" when it comes to justice in game, but you can supplement it well enough with approaches which Falkhor has outlined before.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Foozbane wrote:
I agree with having some special protections in place for lowbies. Yeah maybe it breaks RP, but more importantly, high level griefers can ruin the whole experience for their targets. All it takes is a quiet morning in Tuskandale with a couple of arsehole lvl15 griefers to wreck the game for any number of new entering characters (who, by the way, DID go through the trouble of completing the application process).


Fooz, do what i'm doing and let the SQL do all the policing and let the DMs DM.

When a new player (not character) joins just flag them as "new" in the player database for 5 levels or so, and have this in your OnRespawn code:

Code:

object oKiller = GetLastHostileActor(oRespawner);
//need to get oRespawner and the playernames etc as well...
//lots cut out here... this is the part thats relevant:

if(GetIsPC(oKiller)) //was it a PK?
{
   sSQL = "SELECT new FROM players WHERE player='" + sRespawner + "'" ;
   SQLExecDirect(sSQL);
   if(SQLFetch() == SQL_SUCCESS)
      if(StringToInt(SQLGetData(1)) == 1) //is the player new to the server?
      {
         sSQL = "SELECT status FROM players WHERE player='" + sKiller + "'" ;
         SQLExecDirect(sSQL);
         if(SQLFetch() == SQL_SUCCESS)
         {
            if(StringToInt(SQLGetData(1)) == 2)
            {
               BootPC(oKiller);
               sSQL = "UPDATE players SET status = 3 WHERE player= '" + sKiller + "'" ;
               SQLExecDirect(sSQL);
               nRespawnPenalty = FALSE;
               SendMessageToPC(oRespawner, "Penalties suspended, PKer banned");
            }
            else
            {
               sSQL = "UPDATE players SET status = 2 WHERE player= '" + sKiller + "'";
               SQLExecDirect(sSQL);
               nRespawnPenalty = FALSE;
               SendMessageToPC(oKiller, "You have just PKed a new player on this " +
                           "server and are now one step away from a lifetime ban.");
               SendMessageToPC(oRespawner, "Penalties suspended, PKer logged.");
            }
         }
      }
}

Mine checks for same faction as well (whoops... fireball) but thats the general idea.
In my player database 0 is regular player, 1 is player has been given a formal warning, 2 is final warning, 3 is banned in the status field. Only problem with this is that the player might click "exit" instead of "respawn".
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Foozbane
PostWed 07/23/03 9:09pm
That sounds like the right kind of thing. Thanks for the tidbit Balkur.  Reply with quote
 
ShadowCore
PostWed 07/23/03 10:16pm
However, I don't think banning for PKing is ANYTHING we want to be looking at. The policing, for as far as I know, would all be IC...  Reply with quote
 
Ectovult
PostThu 07/24/03 11:24am
aye.. banning the PKers will lead us to the exact same point we were at Dyso...
Things should be taken care of IN CHARACTER...
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh so we don't ban PKers? Nah. That option always has to be available ... the IC justice system can be exhaustively well-worked and what not, but there will always be SOMEONE who persists beyond the ability of the justice system to handle effectively. In cases like that ... you need to be able to just zap them outright and no worry about it further.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I meant, was that you don't ban PKing from within the engine. This leads to TOO many difficulties. Banning a PKer via DM is no problem, however, if you put a script in place, you'd get too many problems. With the aims for the justics system, it shouldn't be a problem anyway....
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with shadowcore. Look, there will be this application form, with login name and gamespy ccount filled in. So that will not only weed out some of the lamers who will simply not go through the trouble, we can ban them them within a single day instead of the dyso bureaucracy that often took weeks. Then maybe one or two will slip by on occassion, maybe the type that thinks they roleplay but cause more trouble than they're worth. We will know their names if we make the player death message persistent, and also as i suggested simply publish player deaths on the forum in a read-only fashion: "Falkhor was killed by Foozbane in Area Field of Broken Swords". If that message pops up 3 times in one day, I think most of us will get the clue to watch this person or simply to ban him, then let him have his say. Excellent to keep track of players, both for DM's and players. Patterns soon enough appear, specially when we can couple those statistics to what players tell us. Screw up as player and it will be noted for everyone to see. Shoot first, talk later, we said we would on Dyso, we never really did becasue we didnt have the means.
Also noobs are informed of this procedure as they apply, so if they then still choose to run off the first time they get in trouble instead of talking to a DM then i'd say good riddance, i need that level of immaturity as much as i need the griefer immaturity. All it takes is a bunch of level 15's wrecking havoc one quiet morning? Sorry, but first they'd have to GET to level 15 without being spotted as an asshole and that'll take quite some effort on their parts, second it just sounds plain paranoid, specially considering all the countermeasures we already suggested.
I think it is residual Dyso sentiment more than anything else that makes people call for griefer countermeasures. We want to create something new, right? Not make an improved Dyso clone. Let's come up with our own way of handling things.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seemed like the case was being made not to ban anyone ... which I found to be somewhat silly. icon_smile.gif

At any rate, I agree with letting the in-game components of said justice system handle as much of it as it can ... and not to have bans as part of it. Autoscripting bans could create more problems than it would solve ... tho the option for admins to ban always needs to be there.
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