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Blackhole, Time and Light debate
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Sarah
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2003 6:52 pm    Post subject: Blackhole, Time and Light debate Reply with quote

This is my thoughts and explinations:

Once a giant star burns out and a black hole has formed, all its mass is squeezed into a singular point. At this point, both space and time stop. It's very hard for some to contemplate a place where mass has no volume and time does not pass, but that's what it is like at the center of a black hole. The point at the center of a black hole is called a singularity. Within a certain distance of the singularity, the gravitational pull is so strong that nothing, not even light, can escape. That distance is called the event horizon.

The event horizon is not a physical boundary but a point-of-no-return for anything that crosses it. When people talk about the size of a black hole, they are referring to the size of the event horizon. The more mass the singularity has, the larger the event horizon. A lot of people think that nothing can escape the intense gravity of black holes. If that were true, the whole Universe would get sucked up. Only when something, including light, gets within a certain distance from the black hole, will it not be able to escape. But farther away, things do not get sucked in. Stars and planets at a safe distance will circle around the black hole, much like the motion of the planets around the Sun. The gravitational force on stars and planets orbiting a black hole is the same as when the black hole was a star because gravity depends on how much mass there is. The black hole has the same mass as the star, it's just compressed.

Now. How does time work? Some people say time does not exist if you go the speed of light and into the center of a black hole. My argument is as follows:

The equation v=d/t (velocity equals distance over time) and figure out that t=d/v. This tells you how long it takes you to go a certain distance at a certain speed, but does not define time.

Time is defined as "the dimension of the physical universe which, at a given place, orders the sequence of events." Well. Ok. However, this definition seems either to leave humans out, or just assumes that the universe revolves around us. How arrogant. I prefer a definition more like: our perceived order to the sequence of events. Yes. Much better.

As for speed not existing at the speed of light... well... as far as I know, tme does exist in all space-time, even at the speed of light. However, once you start comparing how time passes for observers at different speeds, time doesn't remain as constant as we think it is.

For example, if you suddenly accelerated away from a clock at the speed of light, the light forming the image of the clock would be traveling with you in your eyes. The clock would appear to be frozen in time. But your watch would run normally. Time is not the same for things moving at different speeds.

Does time exist at the center of a black hole? A black hole singularity is where matter is compressed into zero volume. Matter without volume does suggest infinite density, but in the world of Nature, it doesn't like infinites to well. At the singularity, quantum gravity takes over, rips space and time apart, and leaves only the timeless remains of space called quantum foam.

And lastly, if I was a light ray, would the space seem flat? Well, light rays appear to bend in the warped space surrounding huge object. But light is supposed to take the shortest distance and travel in a straight line. So, if you were a light ray, you would be going in a straight line, because in curved space time, a straight line is curved. So to you, you would be going straight, but to a distant observer, your path seems to bend.

Agree or disagree? Theres a lot of stuff to debate in this one. Write whatcha think.
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AliZee'
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2003 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that shits utterly devoid of any meaningless sense...i tottally disagree on tha basis that tha argument you have pressented is full of actual facts and shit, i think based on tha fact that i have no idea of what tha fuck you were talkin gabout i would have to wholoeheartedly proclaim that you are wrong.
Thank you,
AliZee'
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[quote:076179584b="Ogt"]farts leave the athmosfere because they have their OWN WILL, they are TIRED of being farts, and decieded that they would make their OWN PLANETS!!!!!!!!!![/quote]
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Sarah
PostWed 07/16/03 7:10pm
*applauds* that was a beautiful speech man. I'm having a moment.... excuse me...  Reply with quote
 
Maelstrom696969
PostWed 07/16/03 7:18pm
Besides the fact that my head just exploded, I agree that there is definitely another universe on the other side of a black hole.  Reply with quote
 
AliZee'
PostWed 07/16/03 7:20pm
yea...but its probably full of lil biooooooooooooooooooooooooooootches...so why try to go there?? better to make shit right where we livin now...  Reply with quote
 
AliZee'
PostWed 07/16/03 7:29pm
i like to explore Deep into Black Holes... icon_eek.gif  Reply with quote
 
Maelstrom696969
PostWed 07/16/03 7:32pm
I'll bet there's a good bar in your area called that you could visit.  Reply with quote
 
AliZee'
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2003 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yea its on Castro St. icon_wink.gif icon_wink.gif
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[quote:076179584b="Ogt"]farts leave the athmosfere because they have their OWN WILL, they are TIRED of being farts, and decieded that they would make their OWN PLANETS!!!!!!!!!![/quote]
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Maelstrom696969
PostWed 07/16/03 7:35pm
Near the "Mine Shaft"?  Reply with quote
 
Marquis Drayfox
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2003 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow... this has to be the most serious topic we have had yet in this forum...

*sniff* I'm so happy... *wipes a tear*

Ah. Anyway... well... good topic! icon_wink.gif

Personally, I see time as not existing at all. Time is merely the measurement it takes for the earth to pass around the sun. One revolution is one year. One year is twelve months. One month is (average 30) days. One day is 24 hours. One hour is 60 minutes. One minute is 60 seconds. And there you have it. All of those numbers equal how long it takes for us to revolve around the sun. What if we lived on Jupiter? (Saying we could exist, of course) Would time be different? Hell yes it would. All simply because Jupiter takes longer to rotate around the sun.

So... how do you think time exists?
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Maelstrom696969
PostWed 07/16/03 9:17pm
Because *I* want it to.

By the way, this thread is incredibly non-serious now. Read it.
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Glorin
PostWed 07/16/03 9:22pm
maely u ruined fox's hopes and dreams with a cool glass of lemonade.  Reply with quote
 
Maelstrom696969
PostWed 07/16/03 9:28pm
Spiked with Ol' #7, you better believe it.  Reply with quote
 
Grusk
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2003 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't come up with anything against Sarah this time, sorry to run the debate short on my end.

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Maelstrom696969
PostThu 07/24/03 8:27pm
DIE THREAD DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Reply with quote
 
gaea106
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know everytime I read something by Sarah I fall a bit deeper... I can be her... no wait that doesn't sound right... she can be my black... no wait that isn't right either... Oh hell, baby just fill all of mine!!!
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Sarah
PostThu 07/24/03 11:29pm
emot-heartbeat.gif  Reply with quote
 
Conrad Hollows
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The extrapolation that time is a converse equation relative to density and velocity is a bit off. One reason is because the issue of density, when speaking in relation to the state of singularity, becomes a rather large white elephant. Time is not a cause and effect concept, time is measurable but cannot be quantified as a particle or a state ... it expresses itself in distances travelled, but that is not a manipulation of time itself, but rather of the individual object in question. Time passes, relatively, at different rates for different objects travelling at different speeds ... when the two objects are directly compared to each other. In relation to themselves, however, time is moving at a rate which it always has ... it does not stop, it does not speed up or slow down. In short ... time just is.

The point of singularity is a point not of infinite mass, but, rather, where mass ceases to be mass at all and becomes something else entirely ... something which we clumsily still consider "mass" but it is no longer mass by any normal definition of the word. The effect of the event horizon is the lingering footprint of what once was and as one moves closer to the point of singularity, the generally understood laws of physics begin to break down. It is not true that nothing can escape a "black hole" because black holes tend to be tremendous x-ray sources ... that, in fact, is the easiest and most tell-tale way to identify a blackhole via observation. The state of singularity is not matter, nor is it energy ... it was once both, but by definition, it is now really no longer either.

Bah what the hell am I doing ...
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Kindo
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

icon_eek.gif weirdlook.gif icon_eek.gif
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gaea106
PostFri 07/25/03 1:01am
WOW... did Conrad just spam? icon_eek.gif  Reply with quote
 
Kindo
PostFri 07/25/03 1:37am
Er, not really. Since he actually stick to the subject, and added something.  Reply with quote
 
Darkshadow666
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

icon_arrow.gif icon_arrow.gif Riddle me this......Is it possible to go backwards in time before you were born, and still exist in that state of that previous time having not yet been created? Is Time then a linear measurement <forwards and backwards> or simply just forwards? If yes, then time is not accurate measurement if that measurement cannot be fixed. Time therefore is a effect just like heat from the Sun or cold from an ice cube.

Think about this one!!!!
Is it possible to go back in time meet a girl get her pregnant and you are the offspring?
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Maelstrom696969
PostFri 07/25/03 4:56pm
That makes me want to lock this topic, but I can't remember how.  Reply with quote
 
Kindo
PostFri 07/25/03 5:36pm
I will not lock this topic. Simply because what some people say in here, makes my head spin.  Reply with quote
 
AliZee'
PostFri 07/25/03 7:02pm
hmm...maybe we should spam tha shit out of it then...  Reply with quote
 
Sep
PostFri 07/25/03 7:13pm
*urinates on this thread*  Reply with quote
 
Sarah
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok. First off, it is NOT possible to go back in time, meet a girl, get her pregnant, and the offspring be you. Why? Because for the offspring to be you when you are mating, would mean that he got all of your DNA, genes, etc... and none of hers. Not possible. It would be a different person.

Now, trying to do this without math that you probably won't understand yet:

As far as time travel, it is possible. An object traveling at high speeds ages more slowly than a stationary object. This means that if you were to travel into outer space and return, moving close to light speed, you could travel thousands of years into the Earth's future.

Time is relative to the speed one is traveling at, there can never be a clock at the center of the universe to which everyone can set their watches. Your entire life is the blink of an eye to an alien traveling close to the speed of light.

Time travel is still in it's infancy, dont get me wrong. But those of you that thing that it is completely not possible, here are some quotes I've found from people over the decades, saying that something isnt possible. You may get a kick out of some of these:

"Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." (Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895)

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." (Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943)

"There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in their home." (Ken Olsen, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977)

"The telephone has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us." (Western Union internal memo, 1876)

"Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value." (Marshal Ferdinand Foch, French commander of Allied forces during the closing months of World War I, 1918)

"The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?" (David Sarnoff's associates, in response to his urgings for investment in radio in the 1920's)

"Professor Goddard does not know the relation between action and reaction and the need to have something better than a vacuum against which to react. He seems to lack the basic knowledge ladled out daily in high schools." (New York Times editorial about Robert Goddard's revolutionary rocket work, 1921)

"Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?" (Harry M. Warner, Warner Brothers, 1927)

"Everything that can be invented has been invented." (Charles H. Duell, commissioner, US Office of Patents, 1899)

In fact, Stephen Hawking (btw, my favorite scientist of all time) has proposed using wormholes to connect our universe and what we know to other parallel universes, infinitly.

Anyway, I have a lot to say on this subject, but I'll close here, for now.
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Kindo
PostFri 07/25/03 8:56pm
See? My head is spinning like crazy. This thread is a keeper.  Reply with quote
 
Darkshadow666
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you believe in an infinite or finite universe? Is it ever expanding or taking two steps forward then one step back (pulsing)? What is the cause of a wormhole? Gravity, time, a tear in the dimensional plane, etc...

she's on a roll just giving her some fuel for her fire...Or is that Sep's job? icon_cool.gif
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Z
PostSat 07/26/03 8:25am
I want to know how the *concept* of warp drives work. Of course, most of its science fiction, but is it possible? etc.etc.  Reply with quote
 
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