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Uin
PostThu 07/17/03 5:26pm
What are you planning for the rules?
Restrictions on Subraces? Names? Horns?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Subraces would be SSOOOO sweet...
There is a server (Vastonia) that has several subraces, and these include new PC models!!! (eg. there is a half-giant subrace, and the character becomes HUGE).
PLUS, they have a lot of new classes to choose too... and everything one has to do to gain access to all that is download a really small ziped file.
I was impressed...

Names should be restricted to NORMAL names, so that we could exclude all those names like "Lucifer the Evil one" or "Evil Chaotic Bastard" icon_wink.gif

I'd also say NO to horns... totally non-RP... it's like: "hey.. there's an evil guy with a pair of horns...yyyaaayyyy"
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OOOOOOOO!!!!

SUBRACES!!!!!

And that other MOD that some people here have a problem with for some odd reason has a cool thing, too: different RACES! Minotaur, Goblin, Pixie, Gargole, and more!!!
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, we're looking into hakpaks and that subrace/monster model one is a favorite of mine as well. Application should prevent the mod from being overrun by monster players but the odd one or two could be fun. However this might be a while. Specially since IF there would be monster players i'd definately want to change the guards as well to attack a goblin player who dares show his face in town. A Subrace script without monster race models is far easier to implement though, allowing sea elves, drow, duergar, wild elves/wood elves, cannibal halflings, etc. We'll see. One thing, I don't think i want to see monster players if there is no scripting to back up their claim of being whatever they claim to be...
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vampires.... vvaaammmppiiirressss... icon_wink.gif
make them suffer some penalties during the day, and give them bonuses at night...
a "hunger" system for vampires would be cool also... but that's asking too much, isnt it? icon_smile.gif
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2003 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually dislike subraces, since most of them are supposed to be very rare. Permission should be asked before creating one.

Vampires vapourise in sunlight, as a werewolf you wouldn't actually be able to control yourself, part-celestials are one in every hundred thousand.

I also hate it when the standard races become the minority. Human Bard, Elf Fighter, Halfling Rogue, and all around are half lich-drtagon avatars of bane. icon_rolleyes.gif
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Z
PostThu 07/17/03 9:40pm
Agree with Uin... and dont get me started on drow...  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2003 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally my experience with these things tends to be this ...

"Everyone wants to be the coolie-cool flavor of the month race."

Most subraces, if not all of them, are supposed to be terribly rare ... as in any given character might run into one of these subraces in their lifetime, if even that. With that in mind, while I am not against implementing of some subraces, I adovate it only on the grounds that it be extremely restricted to people who can actually play the race properly.

Of course this will invite rounds and rounds of "Well I can play a Drow, I will show you just let me make one" and all that stuff. Hmm ... doubt that's gonna fly. It's gonna end up being a bit fight in due time because "well so-and-so got to make a drow, why can't I? huh? why?" And the answer to that, as with so many things, will basically be "because we said so."
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uin wrote:
I actually dislike subraces, since most of them are supposed to be very rare. Permission should be asked before creating one.


Totally agreed, as it is Dyso was overrun by Good Drow running around in broad daylight, and in Arkania there are minotaurs, snake people, and about a billion vampires walking around anywhere...if we want to go to those sort of subraces, make sure there is night/day and a way to tell when it is, and if vampires go out in sunlight....100 damage per 5 seconds...something drastic...Also...some way to make it so there are no good vampires or good drow...they are so rare, yet 96% of all drow are mysteriously good...

I like the idea of subraces but hate the idea of being overrun by freakish monsters.
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M-K
PostFri 07/18/03 2:05am
My post was going to the the same as Ultrafoos so all can say well said.  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conrad Hollows wrote:
I adocate it only on the grounds that it be extremely restricted to people who can actually play the race properly.

Of course this will invite rounds and rounds of "Well I can play a Drow, I will show you just let me make one" and all that stuff. Hmm ... doubt that's gonna fly. It's gonna end up being a bit fight in due time because "well so-and-so got to make a drow, why can't I? huh? why?" And the answer to that, as with so many things, will basically be "because we said so."


If we have subraces, and applications to join... couldn't we combine the two into an authorized subrace system (using the DB)? the people reviewing the applications could be given a guideline to how to RP the drow/half goblin/Fiendish-Dire-Werebear-Half-Lichdragon-Avatar of Bane-Halfling-Illusion-Sorcerer-Ghost (just realized this was a bad idea, but anyhow) then whether they check a little box or not allow the person to select the subrace in a Dialog box that sets Subrace in the first area's OnEnter script slot

(again, bad, but valid idea)
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Matthijs says:
   oh ja, ik weet het zonet nog niet
Matthijs says:
   het ziet er toch wel een beetje naar uit dat we nederlands praten
Matthijs says:
   mischien moet ik dan maar eens vaker nederlands gaan praten
Matthijs says:
   kan je me ook meteen niet op al mijn spellinsfouten wijzen
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, that is a good idea - although i suggest if we do that we be a LOT stricter of the "freakish subraces", as i call them. Those like Half-Dragon, Drow, Vampires, Minotaur...i would include Half-Orc in this if they weren't already known around...anyways...these "freakish subraces" need to be applied for directly, and upon acception (limited number), tell them their RP...give them STRICT RP rules, and if they break them, depending on the severity, it shouldn't be too hard to turn their char into a normal race or just delete them altogether. That way we won't have 450 Good Drow Sorcerors running around helping people. The freakish subraces will follow their suggested alignments and act like a race should - this includes random killings and such - but as such you accept being hunted and many deaths...part of the challange of being a subrace. It should not be easy...think about it...does anyone really think in real medieval times A Half-Orc named Vurg could really be a Knight sworn for goodness? More like...hi you want to be a squire....Excuse me while we laugh and call you a freak....so should it be with Drow and Vampires and all that...


I would go even further and suggest that Drow and Vampires, along with their SEVERE penalties, have their own cities that only they can enter, where they can buy weapons whose bonuses work only when it is dark, or something like that. Perhaps I seem anti-subrace, and i am in a way because it is unreal to have a Half-Dragon walk around and buy equipment from a Human Merchant...for the same price as a Human...Call me prejudiced...but i go for realism as close as we can go. Sorry for the long post and my lack of good format...i don't make paragraphs and half my sentences end with ... icon_razz.gif
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well that's the thing... I like subraces but they are supposed to be rare. So... the thing is we can't really give them to people because then they will whine and complain about wanted to be one too... then the whole server is at it... and then... more problems than anything.

So... this is going to be a tough decision. I think they should exist, but they should be rare, or just random people or good roleplayers picked out by the DM. Make it some sort of reward I guess icon_wink.gif
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about we let people be subraces only after theyhave proven they can role play on another character? That way no new players can be subraces, and we know how a character acts, etc?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ultrafoo wrote:
How about we let people be subraces only after theyhave proven they can role play on another character? That way no new players can be subraces, and we know how a character acts, etc?


Sounds good to me.
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Matthijs says:
   oh ja, ik weet het zonet nog niet
Matthijs says:
   het ziet er toch wel een beetje naar uit dat we nederlands praten
Matthijs says:
   mischien moet ik dan maar eens vaker nederlands gaan praten
Matthijs says:
   kan je me ook meteen niet op al mijn spellinsfouten wijzen
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a distinction should be made, as Falk alluded, between subraces (e.g. Sea Elf) and monster races (e.g., Gnoll). I think many subraces are pretty common and those don't seem to be a big deal. Monsters who have class abilities are very rare and should be restricted. For sake of implementation, I'd suggest that any monster race or subrace that has a level adjustment in pen and paper D&D (e.g. drow) be be allowed with the proviso of Foos' approval process and Falk's note on scripting.

Tae icon_razz.gif
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Tae hit it on the nose. To be honest, I don't care if monsterous races even get implimented, but actual subraces would be cool. I mean it goes back to the goblins in Dyso. Yeah they were kind of cool, but you had to bend your character over backwards just to allow them to live. I don't see why 95% of the population would treat a "civilized" minotaur any differently from any other minotaur. Why would a Dwarf allow a Goblin to walk into a town? Why would anybody accept an Orc, kobold, or demon into their society?

The goodie goodie Drow thing irked me as well, but I'd also say that Drow should be included as a sub-race, with the pre-requisit that the character is evil. Anyhow, I'd say subraces including various dwarf, elf, halfling races would be a good thing, but monsterous races, just get tiring.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aight my two cents coming from someone that actually played a subrace (Rayne the Goblin). I had a blast playing her. I didn't expect people to "bend over backwards" for me. In fact, I wandered into the towns just so I could create a little conflict (that and it was one of the only places to buy stuff heh). Anyway, there was a little group of us, and I'm sure some of you will agree, that we did RP well (stealing the little girl, kudos to Romi and Hati). It just adds flavor to an otherwise "Normal" mod.
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Sep
PostFri 07/18/03 5:41pm
No the kidnapping was not RP'ed well. I was there.  Reply with quote
 
Sarah
PostFri 07/18/03 6:15pm
Ok, perhaps... but it gave you guys something to do other than power level.  Reply with quote
 
Sep
PostFri 07/18/03 6:27pm
Thats not the point. The point is not giving monster subraces to poor roleplayers.  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, if Falk makes it so that Goblins for instance get killed on sight in the main city, then it wouldn't be so bad to give monster subraces to poor roleplayers icon_twisted.gif
I'd love to see them get chopped up by the guards..
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PostFri 07/18/03 9:05pm
The point is not giving roleplaying monsters to poor subraces.  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since I will now have a much larger say in such matters ... this is my take on it ...

Subraces - depending on which, they could be more or less used by anyone. I am talking true subraces here ... as Tae mentioned, something like the Winged Elves or Gully Dwarves, Grey Gnomes, Drow, etc. Some of them may need to be set up to be specific alignments and such to "better reflect normal standards" (as lets face it, lots want to be a good Drow and that's simply overdoing it).

Speciality subraces - these would be things like the half-celestial types, half-dragons, half-demons and all that jazz. Could live with it if they were extremely limited in use to only a few people. There was a time there where it seemed every 5th or 6th character was a half-dragon. Even in a place where that sort of hybridizing would be "more common than most," the percentages were waaaaaay off. If extreme limitations on how many of these types of characters were running around could not be implemented, then I am of a mind to disallow them all.

Monster races as player characters - goblins, orcs, ogres, kobolds, gnolls, and all that ... nope, nada, nay, nein, non. Anyone trying to circumvent this by making a halfling and calling themselves a goblin or kobold or whatever ... remove the characrer and strongly consider just booting the player entirely.

"But we were good RPers, we of the goblin clan ... we gave you something to do" is the usual defense. Stripped now of my having to fret over being polite and even-handed with someone elses' world, I can react more honestly ... no, you weren't. There were indeed some instances where the goblins were "amusing" and even "played well enough" but by in large, to me, it was one big grief festival always bordering on explosion into chaos ... and what it did was have the DMs and moderators doing double-time work to make sure folks were staying within the lines of decent play ... and when there were no mods and DMs around, then all hell would break loose and invariably it was always someone elses' fault.

You don't play a monster to try to excuse your behavior of "well I'm a goblin, this is what I do" and then on the same token get irate when others kill you for that same reason with the defense of "they won't let me roleplay, they always hunt me, this isn't fair." If I had been more of a mind to really "throw my weight around," I'd have declared open season on all goblins everywhere as a potential threat to the security of the realm. I DIDN'T do that because I knew full well I'd be inundated with the "so-and-so keeps killing my character, my goblin can't get levels because I keep getting killed." I pick and choose my battles selectively and this was one I didn't need a headache over then. Given the opportunity to define and address the issue at the outset ... the answer is simple to me -- don't allow monster races as player characters. Nifty, all done, no problem. There is no one who MUST have a monster race character and if you think you are the exception, kindly find a module that allows it.

Yeah I imagine a bunch of goblin supporters/players will come out now and say how great and fun they were ... yippee, ask me if I really care ... because I don't.
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PostFri 07/18/03 10:43pm
Hehe I am glad they are gone. Exactly as you said, all the benefits and none of the drawbacks. Ya just cant have it both ways.  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I have to say that I have seen some monster races and sub races on other worlds that really add flavor to the world.

Usually the sub races and monster races are very strictly controlled and you have to have approval from at least two DM's and Admin to be a one. I have found alot of players that go to the trouble of applying for these creatures roleplay almost exclusively. The number of these characters is strictly controlled to, since and Admin personally makes each monster race character and an application has to be submitted by the player.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fine, then play where they allow vampire PCs and all that ... knock yourself out, have a blast, I'm sure it's all very fun and nifty. It won't be here. If I wanted to play vampire games, I'd go get Masquerade or some such. Sorry Falk, I didn't mean to give you the shivers with that prospect.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

heartarrow.gif

Ouch... just contributing to the thread... Just saying that it seems to work ok in some other worlds if the players treat the priviledge with respect, but it does require alot of DM and Admin involvement...
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Kindo
PostSat 07/19/03 2:21am
It might work on a smaller scale...  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Me likes the new Conrad.Straight answers are always beter than maybe politeness.Suggestions ideas are fun BUT trying to run making a mod like a Swiss democracy...Will end up with something containing just as many holes a swiss cheese.Personally Ill wait see what they come up with..see if I like it or not and on that basis decide to stay or not.
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