DysoForums

[Uin]

Very good idea I had the other day: Remove perma-haste from items.

In PnP Boots of Haste give 10 rounds of haste per day that don't have to be consecutive (I think thats how it works).

This is far more balanced and brings some class abilites back from the brink.

Monk Speed
Barbarian Speed
Shapeshifting (spell or the entire being a druid thing)
The Haste Spell (and mass haste)

Also perma-haste on casters is overpowering. Meleeing you'll get an extra atk per round at your highest atk bonus. Casting you'll get an extra spell per round. So haste will DOUBLE the offensive power of your big casters. (if anything removing perma-haste it will help them to conserve spells since they aren't firing them off so fast)

Instead of perma-haste you can have a high lvl haste/day, or maybe 2-3 low lvl haste/day on your boots. I dunno if its possible to script it so that it only works when the item is equiped, but that would be good too.

*waits for barage of complaints from ppl saying how they can no longer live without haste*
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Your Friendly Scottish Hardass Ex-Moderator
Stone Deaf

[Zedium]

Well, of course, some items could keep haste, items with artifact like status. Or items with negative effects too. Like the Boots of Blinding Speed (yeah yeah, blame morrowind ) Boots that give you haste, but also blind you when worn
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A dungeon master's best twit filter is an ancient red dragon.

[Ultrafoo]

Take haste away all together, make it by DM event only available or something. Everyone being on haste is useless - in pnp haste was MUCH more rare - if everyones hasted, why not give everyone haste automatically as a feat and letthem wear other boots, or cloaks, etc. I say make haste rare.
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-Foo
Me: well you know me, i'm just eccentric and i have adhd...you will never be fast enough.
Conrad: I somehow knew you had adhd.

[Zedium]

Well, sure it will be rare, mostly accesed only by the actual spell or a potion. Its not like every store will sell hasted items. And I can think of more usefull things to wear than a pair of boots that give me haste once a day, although they can be usefull.
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A dungeon master's best twit filter is an ancient red dragon.

[Kindo]

I'm with the Uin on this one. Sounds sweet to actually have use of Monk speed and Barb speed.

[Griff Inn]

[M-K]

Remove haste depends for playing on the size of the world and size of the maps.Time to transit "Ultrafoo"..correct me if wrong but in your PnP worlds travel was abstracted not at a constant time.That is the DM could say youve travelled X number of distances in this time no encounters its now this time rest and eat.Those conventions dont work here.This is DD in a PC game not PnP game some of the concepts translate easily some dont or arent possible this is a different medium.
Take away haste no problem and ill safely bet those suggesting it will be the ones clamouring for its returnLlets get rid of people beeing able to remomerize more than once a day as in PnP too while were at it.Well if you let magics use haste make sure not too many a day.And if you have boots with once a day that means once a rest..so need to make it more restricted.
Why change things that dont cause much problem?.The game is meant to be fun not a chore.
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"It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it; consequently, the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning."

-George Orwell


"Orwell was right : Pacifists are the objective allies of tyrants."

As said by Pompey the Great
Do not talk to us of Laws.we have swords

[Uin]

Its not a chore, after playing Druids and Monks (which I don't normally play) I realise how broken it was and how much more balance it would be without. I love shapeshifting as a druid, you can take a form that best fits your situation so the disadvantages aren't that bad. Except that damned haste thing which makes any form you take less useful that your humanoid one.
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Your Friendly Scottish Hardass Ex-Moderator
Stone Deaf

[Z]

Druid shapeshifts are so incredibly underpowered that your human form is nearly always better, except in rare scenariios. But I wouldnt mind minimizing haste or getting rid of it altogether.
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Z/Zor/Zorrath

http://dyso.joelpt.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1515
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[Tae]

I'd also vote to remove haste items. I hear what people are saying about barbarian/monk speed, but I'd suggest to replace haste boots with boots of expeditious retreat (not necessarily common items). Walking is so tedious and the lands are so vast. I think this was the point MK was trying to make.

I've no problem with limiting the use of haste spells, but while you're doing that, fix slow.
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Did someone say SHOPPING ???

[Griff Inn]

Yes, haste is far too readily available. I'm in agreement with making it non-perma. Players would be able to acquire haste from either casting it, using a scroll, or from an item (probably boots) which gives you 1 minute of haste 1 use/day. But unfortunately that's the problem with removing things. If people are far too used to having it around, they will generally object to it.

But another thing to take into consideration is that Conrad likes big huge areas. It would take ages to run across them if you didn't have haste, and even with haste it would take some time. So maybe make the haste effect last longer than one minute. I think this is one of those things that needs to be played around with.
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Never underestimate the power of hot tea.

[Uin]

[M-K]

Ive been a place where boots give one haste spell a day .....just leads to a lot of resting i think.what did like there was to level 5 10 15 and 20 needed a pass from the DM .So had to stay nice do a task or quest or youd be stuck in level till DM decided to give you a Pass to next level clever idea.Compromise can get XP nornally fast or slow...but to advance needed some RP element a rsther simple yet elegant solution to the argument.
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"It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it; consequently, the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning."

-George Orwell


"Orwell was right : Pacifists are the objective allies of tyrants."

As said by Pompey the Great
Do not talk to us of Laws.we have swords

[M-K]

Fine as said dont mind removing haste just dont pick and choose what PnP to take what not .I think the PC version is quite balanced as was attempting to make it PnP is what breaks it.It aint it never was meant to be.If no haste i would very very strongly argue that you have much much much more realistic resting limits as is and as was in Dyso was a joke.Mage Time stop wilt wilt TS wilt ...run away 10 second rest back Wilt TS again..over and over.Seriously if *I have no haste then cant see why Mages can rest and memorize spells over 100 times a day!!!!!!!.

Always find strange when talk about things spells can give magic resistances etc ....we get the arguments of PnP and realism..Yet when we talk of rest and mage restrictions the same people argue about playability.Insted of recognizing bias.
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"It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it; consequently, the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning."

-George Orwell


"Orwell was right : Pacifists are the objective allies of tyrants."

As said by Pompey the Great
Do not talk to us of Laws.we have swords

[Zedium]

hey people, keep in mind we still have to add rest limitations. Boots of haste that can only be used once a rest aren't that overpowered if you need to wait 5 mins between uses, right?

And concerning time to walk across things, little we can do about that, but it isn't that bad, you can just try to find a shortcut like a ship or something. And besides you just think it takes long because you are used to haste.
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A dungeon master's best twit filter is an ancient red dragon.

[Thargelion]

Ultimately I am with those who speak about transit as the primary concern regarding haste.... yes it is unbalancing and proliferates faster than Russian-sold nuclear materials but... it does make traversing the realm much more time efficient. So... why not script a coach service that functions much like portals did in dyso. Have it readily available along the major transit routes to enable quick movement along such paths to prevent those unwanted twenty minute hikes.

[Spears]

I think haste should NOT be abolished. I cannot bare running without haste... they run in slow motion- and it gets on my nerves. Thats my opinion, and no, I wont bother defending it.
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West Whitewind- Knight, Order of the Shining Blade
William Spears- Commander, Crimson Hand

[M-K]

So as the nasty prickly question been raised ..what rest limitations are you considering Zedium and co???

[Zedium]

Well, I dunno exactly, I just heard a lot of faint ideas, but from what I have heard they will probably be something like the 5 min resting period in dyso.
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A dungeon master's best twit filter is an ancient red dragon.

[CattiBrie]

Well I agree that removing haste items would be good in some ways, but as M-K said, NWN isn't PnP D&D, so with that, things I think balance out just fine...

And that brings up another question, since we have no item level restrictions, can we truly design the PnP items? (I.E. Mantles of Greater Spell Resistance SR: 28 -)

24 is the maximum for a level twenty, in normal rules, and many things in the toolset don't fit the PnP style of things... and in truth, a 28 SR would just about stop a level twenty spellcaster cold unless they used Spell Breach or Mordencainen's Disjuction... and or didn't have spell penetration.


So, the question is, what's a balance of better play style? Have haste and keep it normally? Or keep it like it's build in NWN... keep in mind making a true holy avenger weapon in the toolset without the normal "holy avenger" property makes it a level twenty two item...

Make a poll.

Remove/modify/change Haste?

Do it.

[M-K]

If rest like that Id suggest that areas... the usual hunting ones ...Be tagged as no rest allowed.In fact I think it would be good to have series of maps like main then attached caves tagged as no rest.It would change the nature of the game especially with no haste.
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"It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it; consequently, the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning."

-George Orwell


"Orwell was right : Pacifists are the objective allies of tyrants."

As said by Pompey the Great
Do not talk to us of Laws.we have swords

[Zenithan]

While we're on the subject of realism and stuff...

Tagging 'no rest' areas is completely unrealistic. Seriously, if you went hunting in the forest, there aren't going to be animals jumping out at you every five meters! Set up your tent, campfire, sleep. Even sleep under the stars, and the danger of you being attacked is miniscule. Unless it happens to be a 'l33t uber vampyre forest'(which I doubt), you should be alright. On the same subject, the entrances of caves don't TEND to be a danger to anyone. However, you would still be able to rest if you cleared everything in the area out, as they couldn't come back from no where...

"Yeah, the goblins just pop up from nowhere every minute..."
"That's great. Let's kill them."

Also, limiting resting kills magic. It kills it. Even without haste, magic goes very quickly. Cast a light spell there, an invisibility spell here, some fireballs...

[Uin]

I think mages should just count themselves lucky that they don't have true resting-per-game-time-day.

[Isilzhaveni]

[Zedium]

ok I will give one last comment concerning resting, then we move back to the haste topic:

[Zenithan]

[M-K]

You see the usual response not one one side we want realism..****Tagging 'no rest' areas is completely unrealistic. ******
But on the other hand Realism kils magic so lets have the mages have it anyway they want??***Also, limiting resting kills magic. ***

it dont Kill anything just means you have to think more..and same for other class cant trest every few seconds then be fully healed.

On one side if you remove haste in the intrest of realism thats fine lets be realistic.BUT if you then keep 20 +rests spell rememorizations instant heals a day its totally unrealistic.Either go the whole way or give up.But I know you wont you want to keep easy rest (5 mins is easy) able to use spells multiple times heal again and again.Argue playability fun etc ..The point is many seem to simply hold and wave the flag of REALISM when it suits them then totally bury it when it doesnt.
Have the rests and have haste and the rest .Or remove Haste and remove the Slumberland approach to gaming in the intrests of realism..
_________________
"It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it; consequently, the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning."

-George Orwell


"Orwell was right : Pacifists are the objective allies of tyrants."

As said by Pompey the Great
Do not talk to us of Laws.we have swords

[Conrad Hollows]

I'm taking the general approach of making most of the stuff (if not all of it) that is over like level 6-7 unavailable in a shop ... unless we decide to have a shop or two that are totally quest based and hard to get to ... and then only open a short period of time. Insofar as haste boots themselves go ... don't think you can totally eliminate them TOTALLY as they are a standard item from the game ... but having them be something you have to work for via either making with a crafter or getting via a difficult quest (and then maybe the haste boots are one of a few possible spawns, so it's not always going to be them) works for me.

On a side note ... I am very much in favor of using "scripted loot spawns" that randomize (to a degree) major loot spawns so there is no such thing as a "sure thing" at the end of any quest. Only thing you'd know going in is that there will be something "good" waiting for you ... but it could be something you can't use, don't like, or don't really want.
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Envision something suitably witty here.

[Zenithan]

[Shadowleaf]

ok about scripting haste items: bad idea, it will cause lag since it will need to use the mod's OnHeartbeat won't it? why dont you just have items with Cast spell: Haste 1 use/day very very easy its still 1 use per rest and the spell does not last too long either. also, you could use charges to make it more precious.

i think though, that perma haste should be availible on artifact status items or just be VERY expensive. it should take months of questing and money earning to even see it in a store and be able to afford it. or just DM event or something. but it should be designed so very few ppl get perma haste.
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