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Just curious...
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GorbGuy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 1:54 pm    Post subject: Just curious... Reply with quote

As to why no one is EVER on the Tuskan US server? I mean, never! I think the max people I've ever seen on it is 2! 2 people! $100+/month DSL line and it's never ever used? Give us some feedback here, what is going on with this? Things you hate, things you like. How can one ever get better if one doesn't know what is wrong? If it continues this way, I'll have little choice but to drop the connection rate.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Its too friggin hard.

Thats about it.

I went to check out this theatre that Falkor mentioned. Yeah, two gargoyles jumped off it and chased me all over town. They had damage reduction, so my level 1 rogue couldnt scratch them. Not my idea of fun. I believe my thoughts at the time were "this board is F_____ insane."

I went into the hive sewers. I got killed 6 times by the same scavenger, and only got him down to Badly Injured. On my 7th respawn I promptly logged off.


Now I know there are characters on there that have gained at least one level. I am quite sure that once my character can take ONE hit from a monster in the FIRST town without dying I will be ok.

The problem as I see it is that this board is not newbie-friendly. The areas in the first town are huge and intimidating. There arent many NPCs that engage in conversation that I have found. The only thing I have found that I can do relatively safely is kill rats around town for 10xp a pop.

The people who play on there regularly are in their own little clique. I saw a person of higher level who will remained unnamed as I was walking toward the sewers in the Hive. He said his greeting, and then told me he had things to do. Great. Nice interaction. Way to make a newbie feel welcome. Its very frustrating and discouraging when youre all alone in a rough town.

I assume this is designed as a roleplay server, and as such is no fun when youre all by yourself as level 1 and cant get anything done.

I have plenty more to contribute as neutral-user feedback. Let me know.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played there stopped simply because i was fed up of connections throwing me half way back across the land.To places I had no intrest in visiting.Especially annoying when it takes so long to get anywhere.
So looked for other server and found Ys translation of french Server nicely balanced sized and playable.And with the translations amusing thrown in.
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guitarrML
PostMon 07/28/03 2:21pm
Just to make it short and sweet. 2 reasons I don't play:

1) Don't like it
2) Never many people on so almost no RP
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i tend to see 4-6 regulars on often. Those players also managed to get pretty high levels. I suppose one of the problems is that people don't know where to go and that there are too few people at this point to party up. That combined with the fact that we're fixxing problems as we go along and playtesting monster strenghth in certain areas I guess makes it a daunting task to set your first steps in Tuskan.
It is do-able though, there are the rats, the kobold escape route, the black dog thugs, the kobold invasion on the field of broken swords, the animals in skullgraven, the bugbears in the forrest path. For a little higher level than that there are the scanvengers, the beetles near Glorium, the relentless, the escaped convicts, the ghosthouse on the docks, the bandits in shoreside 52, then at a little higher again the highwaymen who reside in the scar, the basilisks, cockatrice, etc etc. There are enough challenges for all levels but they are not all known yet i guess and a little less obvious than wandering ogres. The rat quests should be done at the next upload, as are new merchants, a mage academy, fixed area transits, new areas for higher and lower level. As for the roleplay part, no I suspect that will start by the time we have the basic scripts done, like death, dying, guards and justice system and when there are 12 or more players from different factions. So far I havent done much as DM yet and the other i suspect neither, mostly because we're still monitoring how things run rather than go in storyteller mode. Also again if there were more players we'd be more inclined to set up storylines, so I think we need to build up critical mass at some point.
Invite a lot of people all at at once, set up some storyline and get everyone aquinted as action starts rolling around the players. I am kinda waiting for that till we have the basics done and feeling confident enough to say it's no longer in a test stage. This would pair with a server wipe to eliminate anything we dont want in that was in during testing and will wipe the playing field clean. THEN we invite everyone in for a grand opening coupled with some major events for lowlevels.
I'm thinking of giving testplayers some level bonus after the wipe for their help in pointing out flaws, strenghths and weaknesses at this stage.
The help is appreciated.

Currently i'm working on a new starting point, a non pvp inn where you start and a bazaar outside the inn which has merchants, an exit to the bay so you're out of the city faster, and has the rest of the city areas linked to it. This makes it easier getting out of town.

Griff is working on a mage academy balancing things for the starting mage by adding his Alchemy laboratory allowing mages to make their own potions.

Also added properly is Nattick's shop with an assortment of minor thieving stuff, some magic items and other assorted junk.

So the question, is should we already start getting in more people and promote roleplay at this stage or leave things running so we can spot more things that need correcting?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was an avid Dyso player (played 7 days a week) and I think the difference is it was a heck of a lot easier to figure out where to go and what to kill. With Tusk I ran around the city....ran some more....still running.....still running....and then logged off. The City is too big. Ran around for over a half an hour and still didn't find my way outside. Tusk would have been a nice addition to Dyso, but as a stand-a-alone there wasn't enough action...and there definetly wasn't anybody on to roleplay with.

What is the draw to play it? Does it even have any quests? How does it promote roleplay? What question you should be asking you is what it doesn't have that Dyso had? I know Dyso is not an option for you and that's fine...just using it as a comparison. Even though I ran Emerald and Topaz caves, fought the Glathers, and killed some trolls about 500 times I still felt the need to come back every night.

The Question is Why?

<<edit..sorry Falk just missed your post...let me add my opinion to your question...Give people some decent levels (7) on joining...get them hooked...them wipe and let everyone start fresh. Right now it's not worth my time because I don't want to waste 25min just trying to get out of town>>
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope I didn't come off as too much of a prick. I just felt the need to get everyone's feedback on what the deal was. To be perfectly honest, I haven't played hardly at all on Tuskan, so I can't tell what is wrong with it. I've been working on the Har-Rhun module, heh, and playing a bit of Flight Simulator (thanks Glith :-p). I simply wanted to get some feedback mainly for the Tuskan guys. I know Falk has worked pretty hard on this thing, and it'd be good for him and everyone involved in it if they got the "we don't like this, but we'd like to see more of that" type of comments... So... keep them coming. icon_smile.gif
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkshadow666 wrote:
I was an avid Dyso player (played 7 days a week) and I think the difference is it was a heck of a lot easier to figure out where to go and what to kill. With Tusk I ran around the city....ran some more....still running.....still running....and then logged off. The City is too big. Ran around for over a half an hour and still didn't find my way outside. Tusk would have been a nice addition to Dyso, but as a stand-a-alone there wasn't enough action...and there definetly wasn't anybody on to roleplay with.

What is the draw to play it? Does it even have any quests? How does it promote roleplay? What question you should be asking you is what it doesn't have that Dyso had? I know Dyso is not an option for you and that's fine...just using it as a comparison. Even though I ran Emerald and Topaz caves, fought the Glathers, and killed some trolls about 500 times I still felt the need to come back every night.

The Question is Why?


This is a great question. Why?

My take:

There was balance.

PG vs. Roleplay. When no one was on, there was something easily accessable for all levels to do. Nothing was overly complicated or large. The 5 level bump and the newbie island were good to get lower levels started and able to take a hit without dying. Level 1 characters are not very combat oriented, and need a push to get the tire swing moving.

There were accessable interactions.

There were usually people gathered in the first town. This gave the newbies something to listen in on and get a concept of what was happening in the world. They could easily get someone to let them tag along for an adventure. Player intereaction is the heart and soul of any RP server. This is currently absent in Tuskan, and a major setback to having RP fun.

There was an established playerbase.

Tuskan is a work in progress. You need a base to draw a base. Obviously, the mod is still in playtesting and requires feedback in order to improve. I have been dropping by a fair number of servers, and I rarely pick one ith less than 5 people. Really, this part of the mod relies a lot on luck and chance, as well as word of mouth. I have played on servers recently that I would not stay 15 minutes in because my old Dyso buddies were there. Arkania is an uber character fest. Greyhawk is just...boring. I cant seem to get into either of them. If feels as if im just passing time until the Grand Opening of Cobar A. Hell, I have been in the SoU single player campaign, because I feel like I am actually accomplishing something there rather than passing time with online mods.

The X factor

Consider it the Charisma of the server. Arkania has it. Greyhawk somewhat. Its the unexplainable attractiveness. I really dont have much fun on either of those servers but I keep going back, and I cant explain why, other than my old Dyso buddies are there. With Dyso, I was in the mood every day. No matter who was on, DM event or not, I was there every time I played NWN. NWN = Dyso for me. It had the Charisma.

Summary for this post:

First, it is a work in progress. Being overly critical serves no purpose. Being constructively advising is critical. I like the direction this is heading. I like the big picture painted by Conrad. I cannot wait till this thing is up and running full throttle.

Secondly, this mod is in a considerable tangent from what we are all used to in a mod. Dyso had us spoiled. Its time to gear our perspective away from counting how many monsters till we can get our Boots or Sword or Belt of You Can't Hurt Me.

Thirdly, I realize what a bitch working in the toolset is. I created a couple buildings and it took me most of the night. I am not expecting Cobar built in a day. There is a huge launching curve for a new mod. Playtesting as we are in now, tweak, test, repeat ad nauseum. Then word gets out how good or how improved the mod is. Then more people come and they tell their friends that Gorb's server is the hot spot again. Then comes the interactions, the newbie-friendly players like Doc Healem and Earedia. Before you know it, we're all back on the same page and having a great time.

----

As always, I have plenty more to add. Just ask.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After some thinking and some chatting with Sep on this, I've come to a decision. And I want everyone's feedback on this. One of two things will happen sometime today.
  • Import Dyso's characters into Tuskand for a week or two while Falkhor has time to work on some of the stuff he mentioned earlier. Or...
  • Make Tuskan local vault for the same amount of time.
I believe this will do a few things. It will first and foremost, get people interested in the goodness that is Tuskan. It's a well laid out world, the scenery is just awesome and really should be explored to it's fullest. That's what I, as an admin, want to see. People out and about simply exploring around for a bit. This isn't to bring in the uberness that was Dyso, nor is it a way to let people discover ways to powergame Tuskan. This will only be a temporary thing. It's just a way for people to get comfortable with Tuskan. It is new afterall. I fully think that once people get comfortable with everything and see how good Tuskan really is, then people will be more willing to start from level one and work their way up the foodchain. Then the monster rating system and everything else that relies on true playtesting can begin.
So... which would you rather see. Local vault, or dyso vault?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A third possibility for testing...

Leave it server vault and add a levelup/leveldown critter like in halls of advanced training so that people can create whatever char they want and set whatever level they want on the char. Easier for testing say a high level area.. go level up and run around. Want to test the sewers? Level down to level 4 or so and go kill some sewer critters. Make a free gold dispenser and you now have people testing encounters using items that are ONLY available in the mod.

This isn't exactly IC, but it DOES get a few points accross: 1) the mod is in test phase. 2) you want players to at least have fun and not be frustrated during the testing. 3) its temporary.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like a crude way to solve it. more elegant and far more usefull is to give players some levels at start say 5-10 and more money, say 50000. That way they can test most stuff in the mod without dying over and over, test out items for higher levels and still have some challenges.
But it won't help me get the difficulty and balance right for low levels which is part of the issue raised here, sigh...
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh... sorry Falk.. you were posting while i was editing my post icon_mrgreen.gif

Servervault doing something like above and set the levels on the critter to up/down between lvls 1 and 10 would probably be good for testing balance etc
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Balkur's suggestion sounds oke, though i dont think the level down option is really required. Let the player make a choice at start to play a charcter atlevel 5 10 and 15 with accompanying cash to go.
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Uin
PostMon 07/28/03 6:00pm
I normally see 4 on Tusk.
But its really too unfinished to play, dead annoying.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've played a character up to high levels and just restarted another character. My $0.02 is based on those experiences...

I agree that the current Tusk is too hard for new characters. This is not only for lack of lowbie areas, but also because high levels rush to take lowbie quests/items. Thus, new characters are left mainly with their starting equipment and little else. As a level 1 rogue, the only thing you have much of a chance at are the rats. Even the kobolds kill you too quickly (I'd remove the x-bows and replace them with slings, which is what kobolds usually wield anyway). For lack of anything safe to do, I spent a long while killing rats and literally fell asleep at the keyboard.

The other problem is that high level characters walking through lowbie areas spawn tough critters. I entered the kobold cave in the Hive, only to find it populated by Footpads and other tough ones. At level 4 rogue, I still can't take them -- well, I can take one, but not a swarm of 5 of them.

Regarding the LV/SV debate and what to do...
My suggestion is to start folks out at L5, give them 15,000 gp and stores that carry needed supplies (e.g. thief tools) close by entry area (not scattered through 4 areas). If you start everyone out at too high high level (say Dyso vault), you take away the all the fun of exploring. There are no real challenges for characters over L13 and if you allow in maxxed Dyso/LV chars, will do an initial sweep and find little else to do.

The greeter should inform folks about the layout of the new areas.

If you can, please add a few portals out to outlying areas (say, Glorium and Ao entry). I know there are plans for transportation in the works, but all that walking is tedious ... and finding a random portal back to Tusk after all that walking is aggrevating. After you get the testing done, you can always remove the portals.

Also, give us the ability to kill ourselves ... sometimes, you get trapped in a broken room with no exit and the only way to leave is death (possible for spellcasters to suicide, but impossible for other chars).

I've also found 2 ways to get cheesy (low level) XP. Let me know if you want to hear them. I can always PM it to a designer, if you don't want the whole world to know (though it ain't that much of a secret).

Having no experience building on NWN, I can only imagine what challenges you face. I toss out my suggestions with no concept of how difficult it would be to implement them, but hope it's food for tought. Thanks for your hard work.

{edit add}
Some things I like and want to see more of:

(1) DM presence! I've seen DM's on quite a bit and really appreciate the little adventures/previews.

(2) Dyso friends. Although there's only a handful of people, it's good to reconnect with some of my old pals and make some new ones.

(3) Tuskan history and geography coincide. Great job linking the history to the feel of the lands. After I read the history post and walked around, I said, "wow, lots of careful thought."

(4) Neat monsters... especially those sand critters (I forget their names).

(5) Neat items, especially the SOU ones, such as Dagger of Shattering. The items also appear where they make sense, not simply in wierd places.

(6) Sense of humor that's also fitting. Go Neanderthal!

(7) Great mood ... especially Ruins of Ao Shavar (I think that's what it's called).

Tae
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, as of right now the Dyso characters have invaded Tuskan. I'll keep an eye on the server for the next couple days and see if anyone trickles in. I did save all of the Tuskan characters (as well as the Contest of Champions characters,) so not all is lost. If I see there have yet to be any more activity, I'll switch the vault back and look at alternatives. I also like the ideas people are coming in with to get this server hopping, and hopefully Falks computer will stay running so he can do his magic. icon_smile.gif
Please also keep in mind, this is a temporary thing. It could be like this till the end of the week, it could be gone tomorrow. This is meant to really do one thing, and one thing only. Get people attention in the mod. Once we entice some people, then we can get some more bugs worked out. But, at the rate it's going, it'll take literally forever to get the 4 people that do play it to report and/or find the bugs. More people = more playtesting. icon_wink.gif
So... enjoy! icon_biggrin.gif
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm, well I might suggest we don't give people 5 levels from start, but believe me, once the exp system is in place, I guess low levels will make exp faster, so you reach level 2 quite quick.

And concerning lowbie stuff and the such. It will be added, dont worry, we are just early in the mod, soon you will be able to survive tuskandale as a level 1. And by the way, concerning those gargoyles, its a little mistake, we placed the living gargoyle instead of the static one.

And on getting lost, notice that we have a city guide near the start, once he works you will find locations fast, and also keep in mind that there will be roadsigns.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am DMing almost exclusively when not in the toolset. If you need a DM to keep some interest on the server I can if you would let me. I love small events.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I personally havent been playing there because simply put. I didnt think it was finished. I thoght it was just there to test run around a bit and then there was going to be some big update with the new mod being created. I have been busy with... "other" things. Then there is the not many players part.... thats more or les why I thoght it wasent finished. As I am kept, "kept out of the loop"
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well my suggestion- if we want some of the old people to come back on, an idea is to rename the mod.

Dysotopia : Tuskan - US

This way those who play will recognize the name 'Dysotopia' and get back into the jig...

For example, my friend used to run a nightclub here in downtown Vancouver- I asked him how he got business- he said, get the name known, and keep line long outside. He told me of how "opening night" the only people inside were the staff- everyone else was outside. The second night, he let people in... its all about the hype, and the "charisma" as stated above.

I know this is slightly irrelevant, but we need some marketing here- if the name Dyso is already established, it WILL sell Tuskan, pending on how many people who were ex Dyso players look through the lists.

My 2 cents.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, Falk may be dissapointed to hear this but I think that the city of Tuskan should be trimmed down to one area. it is quite hard to navigate as it is and that's not attractive to newbies. and by newbies i mean people who are new the the mod. not new to the game. when you enter a strange new mod you just arent used to the style and so the first areas need to be simple and very easy to navigate. Dyso had what im talking about. Eleriina was one area for a while and when they added more, the new areas were out of the way so the people would not get confused. when 3.x came, Gesh added the eastern isle which IMO is the best set of newbie areas i have ever seen. small, simple areas to help ppl get used to your style. then add more complicated areas farther away.


In short, i think Tuskan is too big and overwhelming


btw: i dont think we should steal the name Dysotopia because Brian has plans for it still.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly? I don't play on it because the overall crumminess of the mod reminds me of how we used to have the best mod in the History of NWN and then trashed it and ditched it. For that same reason, I don't think hijacking the name (via Will's suggestion) will do any good either. It will just bring a single tear to the eyes of people who see it on the server list and then they'll move on like they are now.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, serious opinions now.

You start on the docks.. all you can see around you is large grey stones that decorate the area- the buildings are the same color as the ground- and the light blue mist compliments both very nicely.

My problem? Dull.

It lacks the extravagance of Eleriina- its bland, lacks color, and just gives off a boring effect- this is a turn off, and a big one because it comes right when you start off. Eleriina with its trees, market place and what have you, make you want to stay a while and look around.

I felt like I was spawning into an oversized prison cell.

Also, I played a few days after Tuskans initial release... most of the problems are probably fixed by now, but I just didn't like the idea of walking into a town house and ending up in hell, or walking into an area with no exit (thanks for getting me out Solo).

I also didn't appreciate the fact that I found like 20 rats stashed in the corner of the city, and when I went down to the sewers, found none. Lack of XP is what also gets to me- I play this game to watch my character progress- to make him the best of trade etc... but with 10 xp a rat? No thanks.

Grrr, and that halfling guard! That rat bastard always kills me on sight!
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Merorry
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:31 pm    Post subject: Merorry´s comments Reply with quote

Greetings from Mer
I have been playing Tuskan mainly, after Dyso went away. At The moment Mer is at lvl 9 (I think icon_rolleyes.gif ). So its time to spit out my comments. I dont know anything about scripting or any other fancy things, but I know something about human nature (players).
First of all. Five points what made Dyso, what it was:
1. Dyso community
2. Dyso community
3. Dyso community
4. Dyso mod itself
5. DM:s
-I think every player wants some XP even most HC RP:er so balance between monster difficulty and xp must be carefully implemented.
-No matter what, there will be times, when char must act alone. There must be areas to play alone for every level.
-Long walks are simply annoying. Get teleports.
-Easy to find shops for all kinds of basic equipment.(found shortbow shop once...forgot where..cant find it anymore)
-Edit Server info text, to make server more inviting to new players. Put some commercial "oomph" into it icon_wink.gif
-starting from lvl5 was one thing, why i started Dyso. if its not wanted, make first 5 lvl:s easy to get even alone.
-publish map on website.
-I personally like Party PVP more. Mages are so difficult at beginning, so they deserve bit more goodies at higher lvl:s.

These comments are not criticism but only my own opinion. I´l be on Tuskan anyway, because it is one of best servers, even at this state.

Bye:
Merorry
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Tae
PostTue 07/29/03 12:34pm
Talking with someone else last night, another reason people don't play is because they don't have SOU.  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played a little bit last night with my Sep character from Dyso, and walked around for about an hour. I really didn't get to see much at all. I went out through the field of Broken Swords, killed a couple kobalds (to my ooc satisfaction and revenge) then walked around (i forget the name) some big mountain area. I found a couple bandits to kill, then got lost.

I mean lost.

I opened up the map and couldnt see the other person I was partied with (they had just joined and we were talking ooc about the server, and he had just entered the area). It really made my good mood go away fast. I really wanted to get out there and see the world, but I could not for the life of me find my way out. So, I went ahead and called it a night.

Gonna explore more tonite. I have been wanting to get Sajin out for a stroll again. So when you see the prettiest Halfling in the land, youll know who it is.
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Norrec
PostTue 07/29/03 1:56pm
So im not the only one geting lost then eh? Start small, work your way up. THere isint really a need to have the town as big as it is, is there?  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I see your mouth moving, but all I hear is blah, blah, blah" Would fit here I think.

People, stop comparing tuskandale to dysotopia, dysotopia is no more. Tuskandale is not eleriina, its a whole new city, one that we are still working on. We can change things that are not perfect, no need to keep whining over and over.

For instance, concerning the docks:
Sure, they are grey and not really colourful, but what do you expect? They are docks, the harbor of Rotterdam isn't what I would call the prettiest place on earth. Would you prefer trees all over the place with happy-happy butterflies? I might add some more placeables though, loads of chests etc so you can see that it really is a place where people are busy with ships, not with pretty things.

And concerning the start, well I suspect that falk is making the new starting inn in the temple warrens, so you can just walk outside, and then just go to the city gate and reach some of the countryside. And besides, it will be hard to no find it if we add some directions to it. That will at least allow you to reach the monster bashing parts faster, while still keeping the city at a nice size.

And oh yeah, on teleports, well, in the end you will be able to take a ship to reach a location on the other side of the island just in a few minutes, sure it won't be instant, but still faster than walking and not taking too long. Or you could try finding some of the more well hidden instant teleports, although those are much harder to find, finding and using them will be an adventure on its own.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People are going to compare Tuskan to Dyso. Dyso was what made this community. Dyso is a common denominator in all our playing history. Dyso was popular and people always had fun on there. People want to explicate what made Dyso so fun and popular and attempt to have a parallel to it in your work. Dyso is a good frame of reference, and from a technical standpoint, it is going to be the measuring stick by which its replacement is judged, thats the botttom line.

It serves no purpose to lash out at those who are offering their opinion on your work. Sure, some people are going to be curt and blunt, but some are going to phrase their views objectively and constructively. The topic given by Gorb asks why no one is on his server. I have been offering my neutral views on your work in progress. I am going on the server and testing things out. I am providing a little more than the "it sucks" response. I like the direction everything is headed and I am willing to participate as much as I can to help this mod succeed.
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Darkshadow666
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me say that in my opionion....The biggest ripoff and step in the WRONG direction would be to ever imply that Tusk was Dysotopia.

Palladium wrote:

Quote:
Dysotopia : Tuskan - US

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