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Weapons etc.
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Z
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2003 4:20 pm    Post subject: Weapons etc. Reply with quote

Well, as I think most ppl know, many, many weapons are totally obsolete in NWN. For example club, dagger, flail etc. As someone said wayy back, the 3rd edition rules take away attacks/round etc. of weapons that balanced all weapons to a far greater extent in 2nd edition. For example, the short swords bfore in 2nd edition while not as good as the long sword in terms of damage gave more attacks/round in 2nd Ed etc.etc.. hence giving people incentive to use them.

In NWN, apart from wanting to be different, theres not alot of point in using a small shield +2 when you can get a tower shield +2, and same for large shield, and half-plate, and breastplate and loads and loads of other items. What Im hoping for is that in Cobar there will be a balance struck for all weapons by giving the less-used weapons more bonuses etc, than the typical-weapons so that we get less of the typical Greatsword wielding fighter etc.

Still not convinced? How about slings/light hammers/light flails and loads of others..... how many people have you seen use them as their main weapon....
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2003 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If BioWare made slings to work with the Halfling feat Good Aim, then I would be all over that. I think its just wrong, plain wrong to have Halflings without a bonus to sling use.

That said, my new rogue will probably be using slings anyway.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2003 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Z, I'd have to disagree to some extent, the reason not every creature uses a +2 Tower Shield is because of the armor check penalty, it's no good for rogues or people that depend on Dexterity based skills.


Otherwise, I know that people use hammers/light flairs ect ect for different forms of damage, the type that gets around damage resistance... oppenent got a swordsman belt and your longsword isn't doing enough damage?

Switch to a club or light hammer and wack him over the head....


maybe, but otherwise I see your point... why not just use a bastard sword for the maximum damage bonus? No point in using smaller weapons unless being unique.... at least I'd think so.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2003 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Er. I think I see what youre saying but I think youve misunderstood parts.

The vast majority of shield users use Large Shields. Why?
Why do people use a LIGHT hammer or a LIGHT flail for different forums of damage.. surely people would use a normal hammer or flail. Thats what Im saying.

Proportion all the weapons by number of people who use them in your head then. Even better get the game manual and look through all the weapons and THEN do it.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2003 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Z wrote:

The vast majority of shield users use Large Shields. Why?
Why do people use a LIGHT hammer or a LIGHT flail for different forums of damage.. surely people would use a normal hammer or flail. Thats what Im saying.




CattiBrie wrote:

Well, Z, I'd have to disagree to some extent, the reason not every creature uses a +2 Tower Shield is because of the armor check penalty, it's no good for rogues or people that depend on Dexterity based skills.



Z wrote:

The vast majority of shield users use Large Shields. Why?
Why do people use a LIGHT hammer or a LIGHT flail for different forums of damage.. surely people would use a normal hammer or flail. Thats what Im saying.




CattiBrie wrote:

Otherwise, I know that people use hammers/light flairs ect ect for different forms of damage, the type that gets around damage resistance... oppenent got a swordsman belt and your longsword isn't doing enough damage?

Switch to a club or light hammer and wack him over the head....




...
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2003 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Catti... lets be honest here. I've been playing NWN pretty consistantly since january... Only once have I seen somebody use a club. Furthermore, I've never seen anybody use a light flail. Light hammers are sometimes employed by halflings or gnomes, but again they are largely left out. I think all Z is asking for here is a reason for more chars to use them again. Maybe have a high level light flail, or perhaps write in some sort of weapon speed script if that's possible. As for tower shields... well for starters the game could make them weigh what they're supposed to and you'll see their usage go down slightly. But perhaps the same could be done here, and a superior large or small shield could be made... not so much better than tower shields... but maybe equal to them or at least unique. Or perhaps again make tower shields do what they're supposed to instead of an AC bonus you get a concelament modifier. I agree with Z on this, a good array of magic weapons would be fun. Usually you walk into a shop and find 17 different long and short swords while only finding 2 generic magic flails. A few unique items for every weapon, shield, and armor would kind of mix things up a bit.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2003 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Always amused to see all types wearing heavy plate.Most Knights only wore when going into contact situations ...why cos exhausting.There are ways to make armor shields etc more relevant but doubt people would go for it.
One is a size requirement a human with a tower shield maybe they were designed for body protection .Or creating shield walls like mobile defenses.But a hafling with a tower shield would be like a mobile Roman Turtle to be blunt ridicolous.As such you can create limits to items utilisation.
Secondly strength why did some have heavy armor and some not.Basically they took a lot of brute strength (Hollywood is an exception )and were generally very unwieldy.Even Armored troops were quickly exhausted in Battle Situations and rendered easy prey.So you could have a Strength limit imposed on armor and shield even sword types.Bastard swords took basically muscle which is why Epee and Rapier became popular they were easier for the weaker foppish nobles to use.
Having a person whatever class with average strength armored in full plate wielding a Bastard sword is basically ridicolous.
The idea is workable but how applicable it should be to something that in the end is meant to be a fun game im not so sure of.Overall Fun wins out I think over reality or the absurdness of what happens in the game.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2003 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had characters that I have set up with light flails and, even better, dual-wield handaxes. I love handaxes.

At any rate ... I don't think its the base item "rules" that make the trends on what people gravitate towards ... it's what they know is out there as "the best items." People know that the Hammer of Thunderbolts exists and is +5 with some additional perks ... so you see plenty who concentrate on warhammers. Greatswords are generally "out of favor" for many people because they know the best out there (stock wise) is a +3 with some fire or electrical damage.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2003 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think these are some good points. I would like to see other weapons used more, Strength limits on armor and weapons would be cool. A halfling with a tower shield... even with 20 stg I dont think that would be possable... its like... a human thinking he can lift a tree.((Which may be possable... depending on its size icon_wink.gif )) Some restrictions and penaltys on weapons for the more realalistic side could be interesting.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2003 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Nei/Conrad.
Quote:

it's what they know is out there as "the best items."

Thats why Im hoping that after saying what I said. if we let people know that there are clubs just as good as longswords and slings just as good as bows then we will have more variety!! We let people know that on char creation you dont have to ignore 50% of the weapons because they are all weaker ingame.

Im just saying that I hope item-designers will understand what Im saying and like Nei said, make for example small/large shields just as good as tower shields.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2003 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not arguing, I'm simply stating what's normal in a PvP based concept, since it's what you seemed to be gravitating towards when you made the first post about not enough people using "other" weapons beside the ones with most damage... I'd love to see more people use different weapons, even a while back I was using +2 flails and the sort of weapons that no one else uses, if you've got the strength to put some power behind it, then it's not so bad either... what I don't understand is when I state something people want to start an argument about it.

Nei wrote:

Catti... lets be honest here. I've been playing NWN pretty consistantly since january... Only once have I seen somebody use a club


Well guess what, I've been playing NeverWinter Nights since the day it was released, as well as a few other people here have, just because you have not seen something doesn't mean other people have too.

I've played a few servers since it came up, and a lot of different people like to use those so called "other" weapons to be unique, and most design a class that revolces around it and really can dish out the damage....

Anyway, I suppose I'm not wanted in this topic, I tried to post something but it got picked apart.

Anyway, have a nice day.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2003 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erk.

No ones having a go at you, as far as I thought everyone was getting along nice and dandy. Ok Cattiebrie, Sorry Cattiebrie can we please now save ourselves from gruesome off-topic-death.

ANYWAYYYYYYYs, To pummel my point further, I got out the error-ridden Bioware manual and below is a list of weapons I think are unrepresented:

Dagger
Shuriken
Throwing Axe
Dart
Light Hammer
Mace
Sickle
Spear
Sling
Club
Heavy Crossbow
Light Flail
Morningstar
Quarterstaff
Dire Mace
Double Axe
Heavy Flail
Halberd
Scythe

thats just weapons and theres loads of armours too. Now whether or not you disagree with a few of those that should or should not be in the list is not the point. There are ~35 weaps altogether and there are 19 weaps in the list. Give or take a few which you disagree with thats ~50% of weapons....

I think most of you agree with me anyway but.....point pummeling.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2003 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is my general desire to work within a few given templates on the custom items that are craftable in game and, essentially, make it so most of the weapons have some derivitive. Similarly, some of the under-represented, as you called it, will hopefully have some uniqueness to them in a particular bonus or somesuch making them more "paid attention" too.

Just bear in mind ... as an example ... if it becomes known that the "best" weapon you can generally get in a module is a club, then everyone and their brother will specialize and focus on clubs in due time. The idea here will be to make it so there are several "bests" to pick from. Also keep in mind that I don't think the 1.5 damage modifier for 2-handed weapons is enough of an offset for using no shield ... thus my general propensity for better power on 2-handed weapons will continue ... and I happen to be a fan of the Heavy Flail. icon_smile.gif On the flip side, scythes are too easy to get to do massive damage and hence I generally strive to limit them in some ways.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2003 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well i remember in 2.x there was some kick ass gear...
i had a kick ass dagger
i had a kick ass Hammer
a kick ass double axe, that even my short lil halfing used alot heh
short swords, short bows, short shields, i even had a kick ass Sling that i used regulary when people switched belts.

tha only thing i would say needs work on is Darts, Spears, QUARTERSTAFFS, and ALL of those exotic weapons...
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2003 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There were "kick ass" quarterstaffs in dyso, its just no-one used them. Like the +5 Spell Breach one that only one char in the module used, guess who that was
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2003 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Conrad Hollows wrote:
I've had characters that I have set up with light flails and, even better, dual-wield handaxes. I love handaxes.

At any rate ... I don't think its the base item "rules" that make the trends on what people gravitate towards ... it's what they know is out there as "the best items." People know that the Hammer of Thunderbolts exists and is +5 with some additional perks ... so you see plenty who concentrate on warhammers. Greatswords are generally "out of favor" for many people because they know the best out there (stock wise) is a +3 with some fire or electrical damage.


On top of that issue, they can't use a shield either, and they want UBER AC.

Quite frankly, I dont want to see these items go because I liked them. Now, some things aren't exactly right either, like the large flail for example. This is a two-handed weapon in 3rd ed. But more appropriately, everyone wants to be UBER. It was absolutely RARE to see anything other than Full plate on a non restricted character out there, why? Because they want to be UBER! The fighter that I had used chain mail, why? Not because it was good, but because its different. I may have lost a few more fights, but I looked cooler. icon_wink.gif

Quote:
There were "kick ass" quarterstaffs in dyso, its just no-one used them. Like the +5 Spell Breach one that only one char in the module used, guess who that was


Oh, and what Uin says is very true. If a quarterstaff could be used as a double weapon in this, I think more people would have used them. But the main reason people didn't was because they took two hands and they did a d6 of damage. I had a cleric (Yuna Braska ya ya, not orginal but fun icon_wink.gif) Who used ONLY a quarter staff to fight with and NEVER wore armor until a found just the right one for her color wise (which I think ended up being that 'Fine Scale Mail' that was once available in gloth.) Why did I do this? Simple, Roleplay. I was different then everyone else, I stood out, and I still kicked butt in a lesser, more fascinating fashion. icon_wink.gif
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AliZee'
PostSat 08/02/03 8:18pm
alright there was ONE friggin quarter staff...
they shoulda made at least 5 different ones....
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2003 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There were about 6-7 different "custom" quarterstaves in the old gloth shop ... they were set up to be useful to the caster classes, but were rarely used. There was the Staff of Besieging which Uin mentioned which was +5 and had spell breach and dispel magic on it ... there was also the Mighty Quarterstaff which was +4, with keen and massive criticals. Neither of these, nor the other 4 or 5 others which had verious powers and what not, was used much ... mainly, I would say, due to what Fox said ... they weren't uber enough.
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Z
PostSun 08/03/03 8:11am
because you could get greatswords etc. which were more uber which people knew about?.....  Reply with quote
 
Uin
PostSun 08/03/03 8:21am
All ppl had to do was look, it isn't hard.  Reply with quote
 
Z
PostSun 08/03/03 10:35am
great tone there Uin, but im going off topic....  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2003 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup. I think that I used the one that casted Planar Binding once or twice a day or something. Actually I think it was called the Staff of Summoning. Fit my character well. =)
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like it if the Quarterstaff, when weilded by a Monk, used your DEX bonus to calculate Attack rather than STR. It makes sense to me. I know that even in PnP STR is used for attack rating, but in the hands of a Monk how often and/or how well you hit should be based on their ability to weild this quickly and efficiently because they're dextrous, not due to how strong they are. To me, a quarterstaff in the hands of a Monk is a Bo.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One way to balance things out is to give the uber weapons some negatives. Say, one wep that gives massive crits, but at the cost of being 50% heavier (or whatever). If we're rescaling, what about assuming that all weapons above +3 are demi-artifacts with some kind of penalty and that the artifact-level items are the ones without the penalties (which of course, are quite rare). The same idea could apply to armor and all other items.

Heh and to take ideas from pnp... (1) you could give some items intelligence ("ego" in 2ed) that would require that the characters do stuff to keep the intelligent item happy -- DM's could even play the item's personality sometimes; (2) create some artifacts that disapper after their purpose is accomplished (a certain sword and a lake comes to mind); (3) have some artifacts that are so powerful that everyone wants a piece of you (a certain ring comes to mind).

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What needs to be done probably won't be, but i'll mention it anyways. Pen and paper, as Conrad said earlier, had attack ratings, meaning using a heavy ass weapon would make you attack less per round. Coding this into the game would be both long and painful. However, it would fix this problem and make everything a lot more interesting. Thoughts?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2003 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not out to change something like that which is a very basic piece of game mechanics. These bits of intellectual gymnastics are interesting and what not ... but lets face it ... there are a zillion ways you can get around this or exploit that when it comes to NWN and if you try to code it all, you'll make yourself nuts. I am not interested in trying to make the mod "super realistic" ... I prefer something along the lines of "realistic in some ways to give the illusion of realism" but you have to keep in mind it's still a game.

Your enemies don't appear in real life when you walk over a special piece of land that is marked to summon them, for example ... and after you kill them, they don't magically come back a little while later when you walk over that same piece of land again.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And who really gives a flying sexual intercourse who is using what weapon? Quit policing what others do and play the fucking game for yourself the way YOU want to. If it bothers someone that bad that someone isnt a dart throwing master then go create one or go to another server that has a dart master. Good fucking luck finding one.

On another note, why is it that pinapple grenades arent used by more soldiers in todays wars? Most of the soldiers out there have some uber pimped out automatic rifle. That isnt very realistic.
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PostMon 09/22/03 10:17pm
sheiiit....i been sayin tha exact same thing since last year...
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sep wrote:
And who really gives a flying sexual intercourse who is using what weapon? Quit policing what others do and play the fucking game for yourself the way YOU want to. If it bothers someone that bad that someone isnt a dart throwing master then go create one or go to another server that has a dart master. Good fucking luck finding one.

On another note, why is it that pinapple grenades arent used by more soldiers in todays wars? Most of the soldiers out there have some uber pimped out automatic rifle. That isnt very realistic.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the things that you guys could do is create some really uber weapons for the less favored ones but have them be very rare and obtainable only in one way, DM sponsored event (maybe two or 3 items a week) ..... also make sure that the players who get the items are not always the same with quests that are mosty between 8 and 12 PM EST..... the quests should be available in proportion to the players if 90% of the players are US then try to get 90% of the quests in prime US time......

Also is there a way to have items be some of the more powerful be race/class restricted.

short bow for elves
Long swords for humans
Axes for orcs/Dwarves
Staves for magic users
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