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Death in Har-Rhun...
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GorbGuy
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:00 pm    Post subject: Death in Har-Rhun... Reply with quote

Is crappy. Seriously! Someone else mentioned this to me a little while ago, and I tend to agree. I played a bit last night, and eventually died. Got sent to Purgatory and played blackjack for almost a half hour before I said to hell with this 2 minute waiting for a prayer to go through. This REALLY HAS to be changed. Perhaps a better solution is keeping the prayer system in place, but making a maximum time in purgatory before being returned to someplace like an inn. I agree that death should be just what it is... death. But death as it currently is going to lead to death... of the module.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand you people from har rhun want to make death something to fear, but this can be done in some other way than boring people to death and back again. To make it clear, 1/100 and only 1 attempt every 2 mins results in an average waiting time of 200 minutes! not that good if you ask me, sure noone wants to die, but noone wants to play either.

I also heard from ultrafoo you want to get people out per DM if it was a bug, but even if you have 2000 DM they still don't want to look into every case.

And to ask you guys, did anyone like to wait in dyso for 5 mins waiting to respawn? think not. Immagine this, 40 times longer, with you needing to click the screen each time. If that happens, I prefer to just quit and never come back to the mod ever again.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
you dont lose xp when you die...however if you respawn, you lose half of your lvl xp..for instance...if your lvl 20 you lose 10k xp...
if you are raised you lose half of what you would lose if you respawned...and if you are rezzed then you dont lose a thing...
which makes you WANT a cleric in your party...

script it like this...
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I did mention to Conrad that this system was a little harsh, but I'm just following orders. Though I'm very open to suggestions. Let's discuss it, though no guarantees that your idea will be used.

Here's the info for death in Har-Rhun (for those that don't know) :

You drop 10% of your gold (no cap) and 3 random items for anyone to loot. You get an instant option to respawn or wait for help. If you wait for help and get rezed, then fine, nothing else happens. But, if you choose to respawn you lose 10 multiplied by your level in xp and are sent to purgatory. This is the part most of us don't agree with: You can only return to the material plane by praying to a statue, which gives a 10% success rate. And you must wait 2 minutes between each prayer. This bit is the part that needs work, as it can take a while to get a successful roll.

As I've said, open to suggestions.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2003 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

death System sounds like the old purgatory system in Krynn.Die corpse on floor but there fully lootable.You go to the Fugue plain where you must worship at a hand to respawn.Random chance every few minutes.result you could go in and out just like that.you could stay there for a few minutes.or you could stay there for a very very long time....a question of luck.
Dos sound at least similar....and that said once you balance the time it did work.The hand became a very popular meeting place with a regular customers swapping stories...and seeing who was luckynot unlucky that night.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My take on this is simple: The harsher, the better.

In dyso everyone tried to make death something to fear, yet it wasn't harsh enough, it was just plain annoying. They made you pretty much kill things for longer. The 5 minute wait was a walk downstairs grab a drink thing. No big deal.

What Har-Rhun's system does is it forces you to be there. No walking away and waiting for time to go up. It makes you rely on fate to respawn. Granted, it is really tough, and waiting sucks, but it is better than what i've seen so far. Waiting has to be done. There's no way around it.

The other death systems have all been jokes. The only value i see on a ppable corpse is for the small percentage of Pk's that go on. That just premotes chain-pp in my book. When Zedium told me that script would let the pper look in your inventory and pick 3 items of their choice. That ruins everything, i would never let another player know what i've got in my inventory, it could ruin me some day. Might as well give everyone Dragon Eyes.

My idea to make this system better?: It is going to be impossible to make.

If we make a dungeon that is too difficult, people die again and get aggrivated and whine more. If it's too easy, everyone just runs through it and gets back like it is nothing. Then you have the fact that there are levels, so we need to code what, like 20 dungeons? At least 10, 1 per every 2 levels or whatever- you get my point. I don't like waiting anymore than anyone else does, but the fact is, it HAS to be done.

Zedium suggested making the wait have some coding that makes you DO things - just like this script does - it makes you wait until your prayer is answered. No wait, no death. The person simply runs through the dungeon at top speed. If we take the dungeon boss fight approach, we need 20 or more different monsters for different levels, otherwise we get a level 1 death fighting a level 5 boss monster, etc. My point is simple : This post is to get suggestions, not to argue. If there was a perfect death system, i am sure Griff could code it, i've got absolute faith - But there is no such thing i've seen. Suggest as you will, all, but keep in mind people don't always agree and people.

My suggestion is that there be a third option for the people that refuse to wait. Respawn at the cost of 1 point of your prime requisite(Strength for fighters, etc). What does everyone think about that?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well after much discussion and consultation with Gorb and others testing, it's been eased up a decent amount to get the message across but not make you possibly sit there all night long.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ultrafoo wrote:
My suggestion is that there be a third option for the people that refuse to wait. Respawn at the cost of 1 point of your prime requisite(Strength for fighters, etc). What does everyone think about that?
Adjustments have been made... But I wanted to point out that this wouldn't work. Adjusting an ability would invalidate a character. At that point, it'd be better to delete the bic from the system and have them start over. icon_wink.gif
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PostWed 08/06/03 6:20am
Something wrong with forums? What happened to Falks, Gorbs and my post?? If someone did delete them I would appreciate telling me why they did..  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...

surrounded by beattle.... my char died about 26 times and as we was hoping for rest... instead he was brought back to life, or shall i said to hell surrounded by those monster... thanks fully he was able in the end to kill those...
I wonder what would have happend if he couldnt have..... (l*ooks at mages*)


...
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think partly the death system in Har Rhun is too harsh stems partly from the fact that it is easy to die because of several things. First of all no resting at all?? but inside houses inside the main town. So you go all the way to goblin cave and you get injured..youve alredy used up your precious potions and you couldnt afford much to buy anything else since you spent your meagre money on full plate or something. But you cant rest... you have two options... go back to town and rest and try again but by that time everything spawned back and youre back to sqaure one. or carry on and with a lot of luck get through but more realistically die on the way.

Now..solution to this imo, is and i say this without shame to copy a series of implementations that have been made in a similar mod with similar aspiriations (in the death system and play style in general). It works and is the best solution so far.

First, relieve rest restrictions as in WHERE you can rest, you could rest anywhere in this other server which i didnt like but there should be some "pit-stops" in Har-Rhun where one can rest and then carry on without having to backtrack etc. The other server had a temple in the newbie town where there was unlimited resting for anyone, good for low-lvls.

Second, WHEN you can rest is fine in Har-Rhun but i strongly recommend putting some sort of unlimited resting place like a temple in the newbie town, like the other server.

Third, make it so you dont have to rest as much... the majority especially at low-lvl, rest because they are badly injured or have negative effects on them etc. Like the other server (and again, i say that phrase alot and without shame), they made healing kits in batches of 10 avaliable from merchants which cost a reasonable 198gp. This is probably the most effective way of having a rest-time-restriction mod without hassles.

Anti-Whiner Comment - added regrettably..
-As I think I made clear to Conrad, the mod is great, even with these reservations.
-This post was meant to give feedback and comment, surely the point of a test server is for people to do exactly this and thus improve the mod in general.
-This is just My opinion..Im not trying to represent anyone else. However in regard to the other server and its well-balanced rest-death system, I think a few people who have acutally played on the server like Alizee and Nei will agree with me.
-"F**k off to that other oh-so-perfect server then Z you (*% ")(*" I might make it seem like the other server is perfect and I no doubt wil be referring to it in other posts but it is far, far from perfect and has many flaws and I believe Har Rhun has easily the potential to beat it.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How to play death ? this could be a topic on its own.

this is usualy what happens for me (my char: Ting)


icon_arrow.gif " Ting dies "
icon_arrow.gif me: (( any one has a res scroll ?))
icon_arrow.gif cleric in party: (( sorry out of spells)) fighting dozens of beast
icon_arrow.gif me: (( ok I'll respawn, brb ))
icon_arrow.gif *Ting dash to the other side of the world to the same location she died* that is if she manage to get past the dozen or areas, levels she passed with her party, and that are now really difficult to pass alone, without dying again.

simple as this.



alternatively.

icon_arrow.gif " Ting dies "
icon_arrow.gif Ting is respawn in Town... she does not remember a thing of what happend. and enconter new freind and chat while her party member get eaten by some undead...


or

icon_arrow.gif " Ting dies "
icon_arrow.gif I spend x minutes in limbo, (if i do not log out out of boredom), I chat about the latest movie ooc with my party who is trying to kill a bunch of undead... enventualy i am allowed out of the limbo...
meanwhile my party who died... just arrived in limbo... so here come and other x minutes of chat on matrix reloaded...
and then as i could not take those undead alone.. we all go back there
"unharmed" to make them pay back (just like in the first exemple, but with some additional extensive knowledge on matric reloaded)
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GorbGuy wrote:
Ultrafoo wrote:
My suggestion is that there be a third option for the people that refuse to wait. Respawn at the cost of 1 point of your prime requisite(Strength for fighters, etc). What does everyone think about that?
Adjustments have been made... But I wanted to point out that this wouldn't work. Adjusting an ability would invalidate a character. At that point, it'd be better to delete the bic from the system and have them start over. icon_wink.gif


Really? On Arkania the DM's were allowed(well...we weren't *supposed to*...*grins*) to use the ModStat commands...~, ModSTR 20, then click on the target, he gains 20 str. So some script that runs that on a character to lower his stat by one would be possible, yes? I don't know much about bic files so i'm just curious. icon_smile.gif You can pm me the answer if you want so this doesn't become a spamofest ;D
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These modules which allow permanent changes to abilities also do not enforce legal characters ... that is why it works there. Much like item level restrictions, I tend to believe that having ELC on provides an easy to use and built into the game (i.e. you don't have to try to script something) method for ensuring some issues of balance.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Death in Har-Rhun has been re-adjusted to be more player-friendly:

(Note that if you are a level 1 character, you are auto-rezed and suffer none of the bad effects listed below).

On Death

Drop 10% of your gold, and 3 random items in your inventory.

On Respawn

Lose 10 times your level in XP (i.e. max loss = 200xp for a lvl 20)
You are sent to Purgatory where you must wait a max of 10 mins before you can return to the material plane. If you are lucky you can get out sooner by praying to a statue and succeeding by rolling a 10 or lower on a d100. This may be attempted every 2 minutes.

It may not be permanent, but it's a lot nicer than what we had before.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think 'permanent' ability changes can be facilitated with the use of regular ability-decrease effects which are consistently applied to the character and are persistently tracked in a DB. However, it could be involved to implement, and also it might not be so fun to have an ability decrease icon ever-present on your screen... icon_wink.gif

Fooz
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Griff Inn
PostWed 08/06/03 8:11pm
I meant the death system may not be permanent. As in we're still testing stuff out an' all.  Reply with quote
 
Foozbane
PostWed 08/06/03 8:14pm
I know. I was referring to the permanent ability changes and consequent Enforce Legal Chars issues above.  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soooo....i step off tha boat in this city named Cape storm....i see an inn and a house..i walk into tha house and theres a bunch of Bugs....i fight tha bugs and die a whole bunch of times...thank fully im not lvl 2 though or else i would be dead broke and wouldnt even have a weapon to fight seeing as how i woudl drop 3 weapons....and if your gonna make it so you get autorezed at lvl 1 like that...why not just give us a Free lvl??? or 5 for that matter, i mean it was silly, sometimes i couldnt even get up off tha ground for a minute coz as soon as i was rez'd they would kill me again, and then again, and again, and yes...again....and i know that if i was lvl 2 i would still be dying like that..anwyays....

so i managed to destroy a nest..and seeing nuthin left i went over to tha inn...and i talked to this man sittin down...tha harbor master...and one fo tha covo options is to tell him i destroyed a Bugs nest... so i click that one...but then he demands for tha wharehouse key...which i guess he was suposed to give you, if you had talked to him first...but since someone else had probably done that quest bafore me, tha door was unlocked which was why i was able to get in without a key..but here i did tha quest, but cant get tha reward for it!!

anwyays so i walk upstairs and talk to an innkeeper who asks me to go kill some rats in tha basement so i go into tha room where tha guard was supposed to be guarding tha door down, and theres a wererat standing there on tha steps, he must have killed tha guard off or sumthin LooooL, so i take a couple swings at him and then see that i cant even damage tha bastard!!! so i run out and hope that tha barmaid or sumthin can kill him....right now as im writing this im standing in tha inn watching tha barmaid and tha wererat brawl it out...and i must say...this is better then tha last Tyson fight icon_wink.gif
hehe shes got him down to injured now...anwyays.....
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When was this?

Quote:
sometimes i couldnt even get up off tha ground for a minute coz as soon as i was rez'd they would kill me again, and then again, and again


As soon as you would have clicked respawn, off you would have went to purgatory, not respawn where you stood. Methinks you tried Har-hun before the death system got implemented.

Quote:
and if your gonna make it so you get autorezed at lvl 1 like that...why not just give us a Free lvl


Because then there'd be no point having the lvl 1 autorez... it's there so you can get a feel for the place.

Quote:
i see an inn and a house..i walk into tha house


The warehouse door shuts itself 3 seconds after it is opened. You must have been very quick to follow someone in there.

Ali, you've had a seriously bad case of misfortune there... icon_mrgreen.gif
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmm...well im lvl one...so i was gettin autorezed that whoel time...

and yes tha door was closed actually...but it wasnt locked...
dunno why...tha only other person on was Sep and he was down in tha crypts at that point tryna kill some Ghoul that had regen, and was dying repeatedly...LoL poor Sep
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2003 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want to give anything away about that bodak boss, but you ain't gonna kill it by just running up and hacking away. Oh no! You gotta use your head for that. All I'll say is look around the crypt for clues. icon_wink.gif

And hmm, now that you mention it the level 1 auto-rez does sound a bit silly in that respect. Maybe set to lvl 3... must be discussed.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alizee concur to the observations made
Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:21 am

auto resurection can turn in a loop nightmare.

just send them to limbo with a special pass to leave right away
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isilzhaveni wrote:
alizee concur to the observations made
Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:21 am

auto resurection can turn in a loop nightmare.

just send them to limbo with a special pass to leave right away


Who *is* this kid? icon_lol.gif icon_lol.gif

j/k...

but : What does this mean? I'm having trouble reading what you are typing, to be completely honest with you.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The auto-respawn script does not use loops...

Anyway, thanks for the input guys! It's very much welcome. I've fixed all those problems, and they should be uploaded on the new version. Updates include, but are not limited to:

- Level 1s are sent a welcome message and are advised to go to the inn for supplies and their first quest.

- Warehouse door now locks itself. So no more Alizee's running in there not knowing what the hell they are doing and ending up dead. icon_wink.gif

- Wererat can never leave the cellar. If he gets near to leaving he gets teleported back to the nest.

- Level 1s are auto-rezed to the start point instead of the point where they died.

Again, thanks for pointing out those problems. If you find anymore, send me a tell! icon_smile.gif
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

2 questions:

- At lvl 1 you are autorezed. Where? Are we rezed at the same place we died, or go to another place?

- Can we lose levels with this death system?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. level 1 auto-rez was an auto-rez on the spot. However, as Alizee pointed out, he was being rezed, killed, rezed, killed and so on which wasn't very pleasant. So, instead of being rezed on the spot level 1 chars are respawned back to the start location. I think it's better this way.

2. No, you cannot lose a level with respawning. I looked at the bioware default death script and rather liked that part of it. So say for example you are lvl 2 and die with 1005 xp. Respawning would cost 20 xp, which would put you back to lvl 1 normally. However you would only lose 5xp in this case and still be lvl 2.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Griff Inn wrote:
I don't want to give anything away about that bodak boss, but you ain't gonna kill it by just running up and hacking away. Oh no! You gotta use your head for that. All I'll say is look around the crypt for clues. icon_wink.gif

And hmm, now that you mention it the level 1 auto-rez does sound a bit silly in that respect. Maybe set to lvl 3... must be discussed.


Yes I did do what I was supposed to do in the crypt. I used the item on the bodak, he kneeled down, and i killed his 4 skelly guards. Then i went to go attack the bodak. I never got him past Barely Injured. He has regeneration, and he kept dazing me with his Sap attack. I seriously battled/died/autorezzed for nearly 45 minutes before going crazy and logging off.

On another note, the harbormaster and innkeeper both welched on the 500gp they promised me for the quests. i got xp but no gold.

Nice touch on the inkeeper/bartender relationship. I really liked that. ( yes I did threaten the innkeeper for more money since he didnt give me what he promised in the first place)

thats pretty much all i got to check out. good work so far all in all. i like it a lot except for the regenerating bodak (which i probably messed up anyway)
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Ice Lolly


Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 679

Level: 23
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bodak... see what it does is if you attempt to run away from it, and it gives chase, it gets teleported back to where it spawned. This is to stop ppl leading it out of the crypt or whatever and causing trouble.

I then thought "Hey, if the player attacks it, runs to the point where it teleports back, rests up, and keeps repeating, they will kill it easily". So that's why I put the regen on it. It's only +1. I can do two things:

I. Keep the regen.

II. Can the regen and make the entire crypt no rest.

I think I'll remove the sap sep. Just had to say that. icon_biggrin.gif

Right, the reason why you're not getting paid is because you are most likely clicking through the conversation too fast. I'll take a look at it and see if it's using ActionGiveItem (which wouldn't fire if you're clicking too fast) or CreateItemOnObject.

Thanks.
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Griff Inn
Ice Lolly


Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 679

Level: 23
XP
EXP: 46 / 65 EXP: 46 / 65 EXP: 46 / 65
 70%
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Changed all the ActionGiveItem()s I could find to CreateItemOnObject()s. Tested it with the harbormaster and he gives the gold nicely. Problem solved.
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