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Healer's Kits and Scrolls

 
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What is your opinion on this matter?
Yes, I agree with you.
22%
 22%  [ 2 ]
No, I disagree with you.
66%
 66%  [ 6 ]
I'm undecided.
11%
 11%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 9

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Marquis Drayfox
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 3:56 am    Post subject: Healer's Kits and Scrolls Reply with quote

Well... I got to thinking about it and I was wondering if we could change the way healers kits work. I think that they detract from a lot of class benefits and are too good as it is. Here is what I think should be changed and a reason as to why:

1. Do not allow combat use. Well it's kind of silly being able to use a healers kit on someone in combat, since the kit involves applying salves, bandaging, etc.
2. Do not allow taking 20s. Make putting points in this skill more useful! Not only that, but I find it silly how these make diseases and poisons nearly useless because over 90% of all their DC's are 20 or less. This will give those spellcasters who want to cast 'Poison' and 'Contagion' a much better variety.

So let's see. Not only are these cheaper than potions, but they also cure disease, poison, and heal hit points all in one. Kind of uber if you think about it, no? Not only that, but look at the scrolls 'Remove Poison' and 'Remove Disease'. Those cost about five times as much as a healer's kit.

But all in all... if anything, make healer's kits quite a bit more expensive. Or at least, more expensive than healing potions.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also one other thing I would like to suggest. The scrolls that allow you to 'Remove Curse', 'Remove Blindness/Deafness', 'Remove Poison', 'Remove Disease', and 'Restorations' should also be class based only. Thus, only a divine spellcaster or someone with the Use Magic Device skill can take them. Considering that they are fairly powerful magic, how is it that just anyone can cast them? The only one I would suggest we NOT do this for is a 'Raise Dead' scroll. 'Resurrection' however, should be class based only.

Although it might not improve gameplay, I think it will widely overall effect better character development and role play. It will also make some classes more diversely useful, as they should be. Rather than seeing a cleric going around sapping everything with his uber damaging spells, we could actually put a nice use to those spells that never get used.....

Just a suggestion guys. What are your opinions?
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Last edited by Marquis Drayfox on Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total
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dreamin'
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A level 2 char has a maxed healing skill of 5. Level 3 is 6, level 4 is 7. This means that those chars have a probability of curing a disease/poison of DC 20 of 5/20, 6/20, 7/20 ->1/4 to 1/3 while in combat. I don't think that's too unbalancing. There's nothing more frustrating than being deseased or poisoned and having no possibility of getting rid of it, cause you can't afford scrolls/potions and there's noone around who could cast remove poison. If you're unlucky, you have to run around with str3 or con3 for hours.
But I think restricting divine spellscrolls (including raise and res) to clerics is a good idea...
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still think its quite odd to be able to read a Remove Blindness scroll when you are blind. I also agree that any common fighter or such cannot read a scroll properly. Realistically, Barbarians by default cannot read or write, so they should be SOL when it comes to reading scrolls. Only classes with spellcastic ability should use scrolls. Other than that I disagree with the healing kits, because they are a 1d20 in combat. Taking 20 outside of combat is no different than taking 20 on any other skill check, basically you work at it long enough to get it right.
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Marquis Drayfox
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dreamin' wrote:
....there's nothing more frustrating than being deseased or poisoned and having no possibility of getting rid of it, cause you can't afford scrolls/potions and there's noone around who could cast remove poison. If you're unlucky, you have to run around with str3 or con3 for hours....


That's EXACTLY why they should limit them! It's like I pointed out, what the heck is the point of a poison if you can just get rid of it so easily and cheap? Might as well take them (poisons and diseases)out of the game....
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with FoxboyTails. It could go any way really... if someone had enogh skill whats to stop them from slaping a band-aid to there wounds why blocking with a sheild?

The part about the scrolls tho sounds good. Also, in stead of makeing them more costy, make it a tradeskill like thing.... 1 something+3 something elses+clicking on useable item= Healer kit. More skill in heal the better the kit.
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Marquis Drayfox
PostMon 09/22/03 7:13pm
(Edited the last line above. I just meant make healer's kits more expensive if anything else. Not the scrolls.)  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think taking 20's should be restricted, i just think it should mean something. The 3 or so seconds it takes to heal IS meaningless. If you had to sit there not moving for 2 minutes- then maybe heal kits will lose the uber-ness.

But my opinion is heal kits hsould remain.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FoxBoyTails wrote:
dreamin' wrote:
....there's nothing more frustrating than being deseased or poisoned and having no possibility of getting rid of it, cause you can't afford scrolls/potions and there's noone around who could cast remove poison. If you're unlucky, you have to run around with str3 or con3 for hours....


That's EXACTLY why they should limit them! It's like I pointed out, what the heck is the point of a poison if you can just get rid of it so easily and cheap? Might as well take them (poisons and diseases)out of the game....

Problem is, when you're alone on the server or in only in the company of non clerics, do you walk around for hours encumbered or with only 2hp from disease or poison? No, you don't you log off frustrated. Taking away/increasing the price for kits only punishes the low levels and having your char rendered useless for a day or two cause you can't find anyone to cure you is not bringing fun to the game.
Higher levels won't give a shit anyways, cause they a) can buy the "expensive" potions and b) resist the poisons/diseases initial DC anyways.
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Kindo
PostMon 09/22/03 10:45pm
Only thing I have to add is that it's highly illogical that some bandages and salves are more expensive than a magical brew.  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kindo wrote:
Only thing I have to add is that it's highly illogical that some bandages and salves are more expensive than a magical brew.


Not really... to make a magic brew all you need is a few ingreiants... say grass and and a clover, then say a few words. Words=speaking=free, the only thing your really paying for is time to produce.

Now a healers kit... you have to measure everything out, MAKE all the diffrent parts and ingreiants, put it togahter, and sell it. Your paying for time and ingrediants.
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Marquis Drayfox
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Problem is, when you're alone on the server or in only in the company of non clerics, do you walk around for hours encumbered or with only 2hp from disease or poison? No, you don't you log off frustrated. Taking away/increasing the price for kits only punishes the low levels and having your char rendered useless for a day or two cause you can't find anyone to cure you is not bringing fun to the game.
Higher levels won't give a shit anyways, cause they a) can buy the "expensive" potions and b) resist the poisons/diseases initial DC anyways.


Well... first off, no reason to be hostile, I'm trying to have a mature debate about this. Second, if you're out on your own in the wilderness, this is one of the risks you take. I mean seriously though, what IS a poison or disease worth anything if you can just get rid of it so easily? And regardless, I can see only the powergamers logging because "they don't want to put up with it."

Needless to say, most poisons and diseases are meant to KILL. Thus, that's what they do when you get to 2 hit points. I'm sure you won't wander around for long without getting your ass kicked. Thus, there you have it. The poison served its purpose and you wouldn't have hours of suffering -- instead, one minute/level of suffering. icon_wink.gif
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<-- Powergamer then.

Foxboy, I had a pretty hostile message typed in here prior to Dreamin' ever posting, but I decided that this debate just wasn't worth it. You're essentially arguing that Science should not be useable in this game because it's not magic. What the hell is wrong with technolegy being in this game? If it is possible to buy a salve, that when corretly applied, can cure a disease, why wouldn't you buy it if you're headed off to fight undead? Or one that used properly will heal poisons if you're going to fight trolls or spiders? Is it wrong to go somewhere prepared for what you're going to face? Are you saying that you cannot properly bandage yourself with a first-aid kit because you haven't been trained in healing? Fox, that's why taking 20 is in the game, there are many things that a character (or a person) can do, given enough time. People with a high heal skill are something more like medics or EMS people. They can patch you up on the spot and in a hurry. And yes if I'm out in the middle of no where and I am incapable of healing myslef so I'm over-encumbered... I'm likely to log off if nothing else is going on. It's goddamn boring walking at 1/2 or 1/4 speed through gigantic areas just because somebody thought it unfair that not all people are morons, and some even with no training can think for themselves and figure some basic and simple things out for themselves. On top of all of this this Healing packs already cost more than what any commoner could possibly afford. And like Dreamin' said, by raising the price on these or limiting them, you're only hurting the low level characters who cannot resist the poisons/diseases and have no way to cure them.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

one word FUN....
We have a game... games are meant to be enjoyed whatever you decide suggest must be measured against that even realism.Will it add something of value that will add to overall enjoyment if yes good if not .........then you have to be very carefull that your addition of reality is not just the creation of a chore.Which in simple terms is my opposition to outright skills they add what drudgery for a rather bizzare view of realism a D and D Sims clone no thanks.
Personally which is all this is I can see Foxes point but Im very unsure it would really add any value for the amount drudgery it would similarly create.Thus crimping FUN the important word.The same goes for price hikes they hurt the poor .........and in NWN the POOr are new players never seen a poor person over level 10.So again whats the point.

If we are on detracting from value where are the toilets in Rhun never seen em we must have the most constipated charas in history.Why isnt soft toilet paper available in the shops.....Why does no one ever tread in smelly stuff...I demand realism......

Well I dont but I always find amusing how people clamor for a certain part of realism which in its abstraction is totally unreal anyways.

well lets just have a game as for healing kits price up nope stupid thats just an extra burden for the new in life.More restrictions aint sure but from what people said it would seem to make more drudgery for little gain.Though Im willing to be contradicted on that .
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

M-K wrote:
If we are on detracting from value where are the toilets in Rhun never seen em we must have the most constipated charas in history.Why isnt soft toilet paper available in the shops.....Why does no one ever tread in smelly stuff...I demand realism......
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ack! Jeez, moody people today....

Okay then, let me ask this.... just to sort of finalize my point.

What IS the point of a disease or poison anymore when you can just cure it so readily and easily?
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PostTue 09/23/03 3:43pm
What is the point of losing HP when you can just drink a potion to get back to full health?  Reply with quote
 
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it would be difficult to change the way healer's kits work to start with, that is if I thought they were so powerful. But disease and poison aren't thought of as serious life-threatening conditions... I preferred it when poison damaged you over time rather than reduce ability scores... and also bioware have made it so your abilities can't go below 3.

I think the final thing to say is they won't be changed due to majority of people not wanting them changed. They aren't really as powerful as you perhaps think Fox, since I never see high levels using healer's kits...

That being said, Fox made a suggestion, it has been given the thumbs down, and that's the end of it I guess. No need for anything else to be said about this little issue.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One little bit on the "for" side with Fox ... I did take out the +10 kits from the shop ... now you do need to find them if you want them. Otherwise, however, I generally agree with Griff and we spent some time the other day talking this one over.
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